Lord Mephisto's Suggestions: PART 1

[Lord Mephisto]

Mage AC has already been addressed in another post.
Another reason to prevent dispel from removing weapon buffs, is holysword. Kinda lame if a mage can just use Mordenkain to protect himself from dispel upon hit.. He's got DR conceal and moderate AC for that.

How exactly is using a level 9 spell to dispel another spell lame? How many slots do you think a mage have available for dispelling Holy Swords?

What is stopping a Paladin to memorize 2 uses of Holy Sword per day? What about 3? Tactics, anyone?

How does what stack for a cleric up to +12? Mage armor doesn't stack for anything but the dodge. Only dodge bonuses stack in this game (up to +20). Mage armor normally will only give +1 (dodge) or rarely +2 (if they don't have natural armor bonus then it's dodge + natural armor).

See my previous post for AC type clarifications.

A cleric would use a full plate with base AC 8. You can add an armor enchantement bonus to this full plate. On this server, it is possible with +4 enchantements. There you go. +12 armor bonus in total from the full plate or combination of full plate and Mage Armor or Shield of Faith, etc.

I'm not pestering him. I'm trying to correct him (well possibly the same thing). He's wrong on a few points. And other points aren't balanced, so we're discussing a way to reach balance.

What have I said which is incorrect? And what exactly do you mean with "my points aren't balanced"? And are you really discussing a way to reach balance, or simply trying to poke my eye out?

I strongly welcome the debate, but please try to check facts and rules before you say I am incorrect. When I am wrong, I admit it. Please try to do so too, and we can have a fruitful debate. Allright?

[Casas]

Holy Sword

His AC, numerous DR skins, and concealment should protect him. He doesn't need even more ways to protect against HS. Paladin could learn 3 HS, while a mage could have.. 6 right? Six mordenkain. I'd rather have mordenkain then HS.. it's a bit more effective. You don't have to render a damage hit and hope for a Gdispel. Rock-paper-scissor balance paladins should beat casters.


+12 total, rather sick.. considering a +11 plate costs 8k

[Rafael]

True, you gain spell slots on the 1 Pale Master level. But do you gain more known spells and caster levels? You know the anwer, it is NO. And this is pain right in the heart of an arcane caster.

most dmg spells end up increasing dmg on lvl 18< if i want more spells I lear them from the scrolls, so sorry but I don't see your Point at all.

And tell me. Which items would you put on to get +12 on dexterity and intelligence/charisma at once?

I'll wear +3 dex belt +3 bracers and cast empowered grace for dex.
I'll wear the +3 int staff,2x+3int rings,+2int robe,+2 in helmet to max out the int.

10 (base character AC) + 4 (Mage Armor OR armor bonuses) + 4 (Shield OR deflection bonuses) + 9 (dexterity modifier) + 1 (size modifier) + 1 (Dodge feat) + 5 (natural) + 2 (Pale Master) + 5 (Boots of Hardiness) = 41 AC.

You left haste ac out so it's 45, and for the last time I don't mean mage armor.

Just because you have trouble against mages with your bards does not imply that something is wrong.

I'm not asuming that a bard is the best choice to fight a mage, in fact I always say that casters are the natural bard predators but fact is, that 37 fort,36 reflex, and 39 will + evasion and neg protection are decent if you want to fight a mage.

How exactly is using a level 9 spell to dispel another spell lame? How many slots do you think a mage have available for dispelling Holy Swords?

What is stopping a Paladin to memorize 2 uses of Holy Sword per day? What about 3? Tactics, anyone?

You do know that Pallys have far more limited spell slots then casters? a lvl 20 paladin with 14 wisdom can stock 3 holy sword thats true but correct me if I'm worng, mages can cast mord multiple times as well can't they?

[Lord Mephisto]

True, you gain spell slots on the 1 Pale Master level. But do you gain more known spells and caster levels? You know the anwer, it is NO. And this is pain right in the heart of an arcane caster.

most dmg spells end up increasing dmg on lvl 18< if i want more spells I lear them from the scrolls, so sorry but I don't see your Point at all.

Caster level is used for duration, overcoming spell resistance, dispel checks, etc.

Not all arcane casters are wizards you know... Are you going to learn spells from scrolls as a sorcerer? Do you like the idea of 1 level 9 spell?

And tell me. Which items would you put on to get +12 on dexterity and intelligence/charisma at once?

I'll wear +3 dex belt +3 bracers and cast empowered grace for dex.
I'll wear the +3 int staff,2x+3int rings,+2int robe,+2 in helmet to max out the int.

You can't count spells in here. Then it is technically possible to increase almost all ability scores. Spells are dispellable and don't last forever.

And your choice of items wouldn't actually be very good for a caster. Have you tried it?

10 (base character AC) + 4 (Mage Armor OR armor bonuses) + 4 (Shield OR deflection bonuses) + 9 (dexterity modifier) + 1 (size modifier) + 1 (Dodge feat) + 5 (natural) + 2 (Pale Master) + 5 (Boots of Hardiness) = 41 AC.

You left haste ac out so it's 45, and for the last time I don't mean mage armor.

Dang! I always forget Haste! Oh well, thanks. AC 45 it is then.

Just because you have trouble against mages with your bards does not imply that something is wrong.

I'm not asuming that a bard is the best choice to fight a mage, in fact I always say that casters are the natural bard predators but fact is, that 37 fort,36 reflex, and 39 will + evasion and neg protection are decent if you want to fight a mage.

Decent? What spell would you ever fail with those saves? The highest possible DC for the highest possible spell level is: 10 + 9 + 12 + 4 = DC 35.

How exactly is using a level 9 spell to dispel another spell lame? How many slots do you think a mage have available for dispelling Holy Swords?

What is stopping a Paladin to memorize 2 uses of Holy Sword per day? What about 3? Tactics, anyone?

You do know that Pallys have far more limited spell slots then casters? a lvl 20 paladin with 14 wisdom can stock 3 holy sword thats true but correct me if I'm worng, mages can cast mord multiple times as well can't they?

So, because a melee class cannot beat a caster class in a dispel/spell battle, then it is unbalanced?

And remember, dispelling isn't autosuccess! A level 20 Paladin has the same caster level as a level 20 sorcerer!

What do you think would happen to a sorcerer trying to dispel a Paladin 6 times?

[Casas]

HS is d20+15. Mordenkain is d20+20. HS is fine, trust me. Move onto other points.

Like energy drain, or flame arrow.. etcetera.

[Lord Mephisto]

HS is d20+15. Mordenkain is d20+20. HS is fine, trust me. Move onto other points.

Apples and oranges. Mordenkainen's Disjunction is not a weapon property only availble for casters.

A level 9 spell can only be cast a couple of times per day. And so only if you have that spell available.

A single casting of Holy Sword could allow for dispelling 4 times per round for 2 minutes. And since when did the Holy Sword turn into Dispelling Sword anyway? It doesn't really make a lot of sense.

How can you possible compare the two? And even argue that it shoudn't be possible to dispel? It would be like saying it shouldn't be possible to dispel spell mantles, premonition or damage shields.

If Holy Sword indeed is Greater Dispelling (level 15) on hit, it is NOT fine. Trust me.

But we have been over this numerous times. I tire of the same arguments over and over again.

Let us debate something new. We have stated our opinions. The facts should decide who is right.

[Casas]

I wanna know where you got HS to render GDispel 4 times a round? I've used it over a year now, never seen such glorious results.

I can compare the two, because one of your balance suggestions was to have dispel rid weapon buffs. Don't want to give mages 6 tries at 50% chance to dispel 3 HSs and his other buffs. Where as HS has a 25% chance of dispelling each of the mage buffs *IF* he gets a dispel upon hit. I've gone entire fights with mages and never got a single dispel. Sadly, that happens more than not.

I already said move onto other points, you brought it up again. Mages have their moderate AC (moderate is rather conservative considering they don't wear shields), 50% conceal, and DR skins. Paladins are caster banes. You're going to have to get used to it. Have you even used HS on this server? I'm guessing, no, since you thought it was Holy Avenger.

[Bigby]

Last time I checked horrids, it does use save vs death, so being immune to death and stopping horrids wouldn't surprise me. I don't know if it does or not though it was definitely in there and I doubt I removed it.

horrids by default does a fortitude/none-type for half.
horrids by ew default did a fortitude/death-type for half.
horrids currently does a fortitude/death-type for half and death immunity blocks it totally.

[Casas]

K I just tested it to clear this up.. Horrid is messed up. It forces two saves, no clue why. Should only be one save.. also no clue why it's save is vs death. Death ward does NOT block it, as far as I can tell.. it does NOTHING to aid against it. Nor should it.

[Lord Mephisto]

I wanna know where you got HS to render GDispel 4 times a round? I've used it over a year now, never seen such glorious results.

I can compare the two, because one of your balance suggestions was to have dispel rid weapon buffs. Don't want to give mages 6 tries at 50% chance to dispel 3 HSs and his other buffs. Where as HS has a 25% chance of dispelling each of the mage buffs *IF* he gets a dispel upon hit. I've gone entire fights with mages and never got a single dispel. Sadly, that happens more than not.

I already said move onto other points, you brought it up again. Mages have their moderate AC (moderate is rather conservative considering they don't wear shields), 50% conceal, and DR skins. Paladins are caster banes. You're going to have to get used to it. Have you even used HS on this server? I'm guessing, no, since you thought it was Holy Avenger.

As much as I'd like to let go, I cannot help but wonder about the consistancy of what you say. You seem to contradict yourself.

You don't want casters to even have the option to try dispelling any effect on a weapon? And you don't think it is balanced to allow casters to use their absolutely highest levels spells to try dispelling with no success guaranteed?

Also, you seem to state that mages are rarely dispelled in the first paragragh, and thus judging Holy Sword to be fine. But in the last paragraph you suddenly take another point of veiw telling me to get used to Paladins as caster banes.

It doesn't make much sense.

And why are you against the ideo of granting an ability to use Greater Dispelling as a spell-like ability once per round instead of On Hit? Could it be because you are aware that On Hit is infinately more powerful than a spell-like ability, which is balanced and require tactical use?

But now, I tire of this pointless debate. If we should continue, only fact and math would suffice as further arguments. And I would like to hear someone else's opinion, not just yours. I am sure you agree with that.

[Xianio]

Well I'll try to weigh in here as I generally have a lot to say about balancing (not that that means what I say goes, just that i run my mouth hehe)

Holysword

Holysword is an interesting spell. It can't be dispelled and normally it's pretty much an instant win. On EW however every hit only has a 25% chance of dispelling a pure caster. 15 vs dc of 30 I think that's correct, if I'm wrong Casas can correct that he's more knowledgeable about dispel checks then I.

Also, Holysword must do damage (physical damage) for the dispels to fire. Here on EW holysword isn't +5 so that gives mages another line of defense against that spell.

Hence: Holysword = Balanced

You've suggested a lot of changes here and I can agree with one; the speed of leveling. I wouldn't mind the 7-10 range brought up a significant amount as even though I'm not playing almost at all currently I still check the lists and most people seem to be level 7-8-9. Upping that a little wouldn't be a bad thing.

Also, I like Casas' idea of capping paladin saves from grace to the paladin level. That should weaken that stupidly powerful Sorc/Pally combo.

-I'll read through a few more of your spell suggestions then edit this post to add on to it.

[Rary]

Grace is on my list to work on.

Horrids I guess has been save vs death for awhile but not sure when it got the immunity script in it

[Lord Mephisto]

Well I'll try to weigh in here as I generally have a lot to say about balancing (not that that means what I say goes, just that i run my mouth hehe)

Holysword

Holysword is an interesting spell. It can't be dispelled and normally it's pretty much an instant win. On EW however every hit only has a 25% chance of dispelling a pure caster. 15 vs dc of 30 I think that's correct, if I'm wrong Casas can correct that he's more knowledgeable about dispel checks then I.

Also, Holysword must do damage (physical damage) for the dispels to fire. Here on EW holysword isn't +5 so that gives mages another line of defense against that spell.

Hence: Holysword = Balanced

Ah, some facts. Thanks.

But what exactly is the effect of the Holy Sword on this server at this point? It used to be the Bioware standard, right?

Is this correct:
* Greater Dispelling on physically damaged creatures (level 15)
* No enchantement bonus (?)
* No extra damage (?)
* No mind-spell immunities (?)

It is rather hard to discuss something when no one agree upon what is fact.

I think I might only have experience with the old Holy Sword on this server, about 6-12 months ago or something like that. Please tell us how it is working now.

You've suggested a lot of changes here and I can agree with one; the speed of leveling. I wouldn't mind the 7-10 range brought up a significant amount as even though I'm not playing almost at all currently I still check the lists and most people seem to be level 7-8-9. Upping that a little wouldn't be a bad thing.

And it is very slow when there are few people on. We live in totally different time zones, and some clever scripting could make the lives simpler for those who usually can't play when there are lots of people on.

Also, I like Casas' idea of capping paladin saves from grace to the paladin level. That should weaken that stupidly powerful Sorc/Pally combo.

That is indeed a good idea. Balanced too.

[Rafael]

Holy sword is ONLY Greater dispell now, no dmg or enchant bonus, no immunities.
As for your question about the items yea i tried and used it and had no problems with winning aginst anyone
(Perhaps against others who were better with playing a mage I'm a total newb about it and I happen to cast mantles and breech not fast enough )

[Casas]

You don't want casters to even have the option to try dispelling any effect on a weapon? And you don't think it is balanced to allow casters to use their absolutely highest levels spells to try dispelling with no success guaranteed?

How's that inconsistent? Holysword is a paladins more powerful spell, and it's on the weapon. It does, and should mean doom for most casters. Very few can escape it. Whenever I have used it the spell, I normally end up killing the caster before I get a single dispel.. or it will come right at their death as a killing blow (remove endurance).


Gnarr's close.. pure casters have 31 DC. Base DC (dispel check) is 11 + Highest Caster Level So 31 for L20 caster. Vs GDispel which is d20+15 vs 31 Means they have to roll 16~20 for success == 25% chance. And it's not on each hit.. it would only be on each hit that did physical damage. Mages have premo and Gskin that block substantial amount of physical damage. (Not to mention their AC and conceal).

Holysword is more powerful than Gdispel, I said that. It's Gdispel on physical hit for round/level. Giving them ONE Gdispel for one HS is pathetic. They won't be able to kill casters. It is a powerful spell, but it is not overpowered - considering what they're up against.

HS was the bioware standard .. at least 2 years ago. It's been changed quite a few times. It only gives Gdispel upon hit now. If you wanna keep attacking HS, then make a paladin and actually use it.