Greater Magic Weapon Change

[Rary]

If you could dispel it wouldn't correct the damage issue. It would only give more power to mages, and detract power from multiclasses.

Detract power from multis, yes. Balance out the GMW/keen buffs is perfect for it. Give more power to mages? How so, DC's are same coming from rods.

[Rafael]

Isn't that obvious? The Mage could dispell the gmw that allows his opponent to go through premo and stone skin.

[Casas]

Mages need NO more power. None, nada, nien. GMW has a balance of damage, how does leaving it's damage the same, and making it dispellable balance it's damage?

Only casters can dispel, and only mages get above Gdispel. This is a damage issue, and a damage issue only. Making it dispel the buff balances nothing for those that do not have an effective dispel.

I am against the rods of mordenkain. I believe you made those just because your barbarian ran out of things to buy.

[Rary]

I made those to see how effective they are.

Anyways not sure how a mage can only use a greater dispel rod effectively versus any other class.

[Lord Mephisto]

OK, this is rather off-topic, but it needs to be said anyway:

Everywhere I turn I see comments about "mages don't need more power", etc.

( I don't include Druids, Clerics and Bards as mages. Only Sorcerers and Wizards. )

In my opinion, mages NEED more power. I don't really see how anyone can think they are underpowered. It must simply be because they are played well. But to be honest, there are some certain class, item and spell combinations which are simply too powerful. This adds to the current problem. Mages, even at full power with all their spells available for use, often have a hard time fighting a single opponent with the right combination of classes, items or spells. It doesn't need to be an anti-magic Monk or an anti-mage cornersneaking hide-abuser. I will list a long list making the day of a caster miserable compared to what it would be like if the game followed the D&D rules.

Of course, I am not suggesting the game should follow everything in D&D to the letter, that would be grossly overpowered for a PvP server and not add to any fun factor. But with that said, here is a list of mage nerfs in NWN/EWA already in existence (some are exclusive for EWA in addition to those for NWN):

1. Maximum hit points per level --> character hit point inflation (NWN)
2. Saving throw stacking --> character saving throw inflation (NWN)
3. No tactical movement --> unable to keep distance in combat (NWN)
4. A huge number of spells missing --> less spell options (NWN)
5. Critical range stacking --> less chance of melee survival (NWN)
6. +5 weapons bypass damage reduction --> no melee protection (EWA)
7. AC decrease due to game mechanics --> less real AC than listed (NWN)
8. Undispellable super weapons --> less chance of melee survival (EWA)
9. Many useful spells nerfed --> spell effectiveness reduced (EWA)
10. Less useful items available --> reduced power for each level (EWA)
11. Strange combat game mechanics --> skill, ability score problems (NWN)
12. Magic immunity items cheaply available --> ineffective spells (EWA)
13. No anti-melee immunity items for casters --> effective melee (EWA)

My point is, if anything, mages need the ability to dispel weapons. They have already lost so much, don't take this tactical option away too. Why should warriors be allowed to buy dispel rods to help dispel mages and mages not be allowed to dispel their weapons? It makes no sense.

[Rafael]

Mages need more power?! Did you take some drugs or something? each time a mage logs on and has no opposite casters on the other side he eats the opposite team alive and alone... There is always a weak spot in the antimage gear, always....

I agree with Deseth about the mord rods, and not only I do.
Now returning to the topic.....
If you can't change the ab and dmg only to ab, why not just don't give acces to waepons with 2d6 dmg bonuses to gmw classes?

[Casas]

I don't really see how anyone can think they are underpowered.

Exactly. They need no more power.

This is NOT a dispel problem. It's very simple. Paladins, Clerics, Mages, and Bards can all buy ANY weapon they choose and maximize it's enchantment for free. If they want to buy a cheap 2k stun dagger, and make it +5, they can. If they want to buy a 2d6 elemental weapon with no enchantment and make it super powerful, they can.

They shouldn't get EXTRA damage from these spells, only AB. AB still works like enchantment vs DR properties, just doesn't give any extra damage. I showed in another thread how easy it is for a paladin (or even a cleric) can get 50 damage a hit. If these classes wanted the enchantment bonus, they would have to actually shell out the cash for the weapons under my recommended GMW nerf.

[T3hRedMage]

Summary: The initial point of this, which I now agree on, is that if they want the +5 damage, they have to buy it instead of casting it. If they want to risk it being dispelled they can cast the spel.

2700 gold vs. 45000 gold for the real deal. It'll help.... everything but dex bards. >.>;

[Rafael]

I told it many times Teh anti bard crusade, someone has sadistic fun seeing how a 150 hp barbarian with 20 ab kills a 50 hp and 30 ac bard.

IMO opinion the gmw classes should have some benefits because of choosing their class, so a +5 ab waepon buff that can't be dispelled is fine, I mean what would be the point of making a bard if gmw was dispellable? Crappy hp, people are immune to your curse, conceal spells are useless, you can't wear a tower shield, you get less ac then a pure fighter or Paladin, your d4 waepon that you gmw to do about the same dmg a barbarian does with a simple +3 enchantment axe....

[Rary]

Stil don't see how keeping GMW the same but allowing rods to dispel weapons is bad? If the other player gets a dispel rod, then the GMW player can buy a weapon that already has the power. This would keep GMW tamed without actually nerfing it as well.

Barbarian/Rogue/Mage DC's are all the same on those rods.

[Bigby]

well doing it that way could bring back balance enough to allow bards their shields since their gmw/keen wouldn't be so powerful. i too don't see how it would make mages more powerful, its hard to dispel a weapon if you get +5 dagger that can't be dispelled or force them to buy a rod if you use a gmw weapon.

buying a cheap a weapon and making it powerful. yes, there is a problem because its not dispellable when it should be. but then again not doing anything to it right now is definitely not the case.

[Casas]

Dispel checks favor pure classes. You would still be requiring someone to buy an expensive morden rod (of which I am against their existence) to dispel someone's GMW (they still have to roll against their check). Morden rods are more expensive then +5 weapons, I believe balance would not be met that way.

I am assuming only dispel rods would affect weapon buffs. I am a bit skeptical of that, I've heard the reason why BW didn't have weapon buffs dispel, is due to actual weapon properties being removed.

[Musekaze]

GMW is an issue (but i seem to recall Casas ABUSING GMW on Death Bringer with Tup last summer...)

yet some builds/classes are plain useless without it. True, dispelling it would give other classes a better chance of beating the GMW users, but it would give the mages that the GMW user is fighting more power. So it is a controversy.

I say keep it the same for now.

[Rary]

Dispel checks favor pure classes. You would still be requiring someone to buy an expensive morden rod (of which I am against their existence) to dispel someone's GMW (they still have to roll against their check). Morden rods are more expensive then +5 weapons, I believe balance would not be met that way.

I am assuming only dispel rods would affect weapon buffs. I am a bit skeptical of that, I've heard the reason why BW didn't have weapon buffs dispel, is due to actual weapon properties being removed.

Well Mord rods will be gone.

Bioware's version of dispel does dispel weapon buff's from spells only unless I make it undispellable. If the person is level 20 and a pure class, then yes the other class would need to hope for a 17,18,29,20 on their roll to dispel one weapon buff. This would help all pure classes though in essence. It also would help bring back the dispel/gmw balance that nwn had all along.

yet some builds/classes are plain useless without it. True, dispelling it would give other classes a better chance of beating the GMW users, but it would give the mages that the GMW user is fighting more power. So it is a controversy.
I say keep it the same for now.

This would not give the mages more power. As I said before that mage would have to give up 36,000 gold for it and all you'd have to do is switch to a weapon that doesn't need the spell. Right now they just use the 36k extra gold to buff themselves better.

Anyways the spell has to change the way it is right now. As Casas said you can go make a 1d6 cold weapon and turn it into a +5, 1d6 cold undispellable weapon for free. So I'm thinking of either going dispelling it or making GMW on self just do AB and not enchantment. On targets it stays the same. Gotta keep the team spirit up. The latter thing here is it hurts those classes that are weaker on the melee standpoint.....Like Clerics & Bards will get hit by it alot more. Paladins could always use the nerf though. Thats why the dispel should be better to balance the GMW out.

[Lord Mephisto]

Following this discussion from start to end, I fail to see any other reasonable solution than to allow dispelling spells to work on weapons.

Greater Magic Weapon should also be changed since it doesn't scale well for a PvP server, especially not EWA with the kind of available weapons. Here is my suggestion for GMW in addition to making dispelling spells affect all weapons and armor:

+1 ENCHANTEMENT bonus per 4 caster levels. Maximum +5 at level 20. Weapons are dispellable as normal. The spell is self only. The spell lasts for 1 turn (10 rounds) per caster level.

Also, increase the cost of special weapons slightly and keep the standard weapons the same. Or add a slight vulnerability to the opposite element on the now cheap weapons with "free" elemental damage. For example, the +1d6 fire longsword with no other enchantements could get a -5 % vulnerability to cold and -1 on saving throws against cold. A +2d6 fire longsword -10 % and -2. A longsword with +1d6 fire damage in addition to +1 enchantement bonus would get no such vulnerability. It would slightly harm those who buy cheap "bonus weapons" and spam GMW on them and thus reduce the problem.