Bard Tower Shield

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:25 pm

50 AC with 270 000 EXP.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:27 pm

Nah, +3 deflect ring is 8k. Hardies are 108k. Tower +3 is 6k. Haste amulet is 26k (although my bard used spell). +3 armor is 8k. 150k? Leaves 40k for weapon, and other assorted gears. Well the other assorted would be 50 perform, not that expensive though.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:43 pm

+5 cloak is 100K

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:44 pm

+3 deflect ring is 8k.. all they need. Cloaks more then 100k no? Around there though, cloak would up it to 52 AC, 57 w/exp.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:57 pm

That's a build pretending we gave them tower shields back. PM gives 2 AC, so it's the same. As I said, +3 ring did nothing to add to AC. Notice how much more gold I have to spend. That's buying the 7K cloak instead of the 110K cloak. That is also wearing the +5 boots. Take them down to +4 boots and you'll have 48 AC and enough gold to actually spend on things you'll need in a melee fight. Like.. more than +3 full plate and a decent weapon, helmet, rings, gauntlet and belt. With just equipment to max AC, no weapon or anything to fill those empty slots, you'd be dropping 260-270K. More than you're average level 20.

That's 48 AC with 25 % conceal. That's doable.

Isn't 48 AC around what I said to begin with? Funny how I would know.

I already said I don't think bards should have expertise, but I have three other characters with AC higher than a pure bards anyway. Melee builds with higher AB that is.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:04 pm

Tower shield is 2 more AC, pure bard song I think is 1 more AC over that. I'm not exactly following where you're going with this, we're doing pure bards. How's the +3 ring not contribute to his AC? It gets deflection AC from no where other then it's ring. Mage armor is +1, ring cancels it.

I'll run through the base scores, see if I'm wrong.. check my work.

11 Base (12 DEX) + 11 Heavy Armor AC + 4 Haste Dodge AC + 3 Deflection Ring + 4 Bardic song Dodge AC + 2 Mage armor Dodge/Natural AC +6 Tower Shield + 5 Hardies Dodge AC + 4 Tumble AC = 50 on the dot.. sorry man. Sure seems right. More AC if he wanted to use haste as a spell.. like my STR bard did, but he wore other amulets. What plate are you wearing? I'm guessing CON cloak too. Should have about 40k if you spend money on the things I outlined earlier.. buy a 2k dagger GMW/Keen, and scrap up some other equip, could always lose one AC point for 32k more GP on the hardies.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:07 pm

Casas wrote:Tower shield is 2 more AC, pure bard song I think is 1 more AC over that. I'm not exactly following where you're going with this, we're doing pure bards. How's the +3 ring not contribute to his AC? It gets deflection AC from no where other then it's ring. Mage armor is +1, ring cancels it.

I'll run through the base scores, see if I'm wrong.. check my work.

11 Base (12 DEX) + 11 Heavy Armor AC + 4 Haste Dodge AC + 3 Deflection Ring + 4 Bardic song Dodge AC + 2 Mage armor Dodge/Natural AC +6 Tower Shield + 5 Hardies Dodge AC + 4 Tumble AC = 50 on the dot.. sorry man. Sure seems right. More AC if he wanted to use haste as a spell.. like my STR bard did, but he wore other amulets.

Can you really be that blind? I thought if I made a picture you'd see! PM gives +2 AC, so I used that build to demonstrate the +2 AC the small shield +3 is missing. The ring does NOT add up, not even casting mage armor yet. It doesn't stack with cloaks. Sure. You can get 50 AC on the dot, IF you have over 260 XP and you want to fist people to death. Even so, 50 AC is NOT unhitable. I'd have to roll a 2 to miss it on a smite from my paladin.

* But that's a paladin. * So? Pure paladins get a bonus! Why can't pure bards? Every pure class gets a bonus.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:10 pm

I'm lost, I drew out the PC sheet.. those are the ACs for a pure bard. Bard song for pure L20 bard gives +4 AC, yours would only get +3 for not being pure.

Read my numbers tell me how they are wrong, or how the +3 ring doesn't help the build? Please don't insult me, you've done enough of that today. I'm obviously blind.

And even so, you would hit 50AC with the extra 1 AC from song and tower (assuming you had it). Aren't paladins supposed to kill bards (what pure bonus do they get? Stack might and favor?)

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:13 pm

Because you refuse to believe you are incorrect in any situation, even when there is a freakin' picture to look at. My song gives +4 AC. I'm not THAT dumb. That picture is with everyone on you listed.

Pure bards are NOT overpowered.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:16 pm

Did I add wrong? I added correctly, I used a calculator twice. How can this be wrong?

Here's the journal entry for bards, they get +5 dodge AC?

Perform >= 50 & Lvl >= 20 (Bard Song Lv 13)
AB+4,AD+4,W+3,F+3,R+3,HP+30,AC+5,S+10,SB
AB-4,AD-4,W-3,F-3,R-3,HP-30,AC-5,S-10,SF-10

Man I'm sorry, I don't see how those numbers are wrong.. that's how D&D sheets are calculated.

With that entry would up the AC to 51 from the numbers I crunched earlier. I don't understand what you're doing wrong.. well you're PM over pure bard. I do understand that the +2 AC from PM would make the small shield into a tower, but should be pure bard man.. would help alleviate variables.

I've looked over it 10 times.. I don't see how it's wrong. The numbers even went up after I went to the journal entry for L13 bardic song (highest L) What's with the deflection ACs? Bard song gives Dodge AC to my knowledge, if it's deflection AC that's much different. I'll look on my bard.

Note: I didn't say you were dumb.

Second Note: Pure barbarians have 39 AB (+3 weapon, unless they switch to daggers) would hit a 51 AC bard on a 12 first and last roll only, only three of the barbarian attacks would be in range of that AC - First 12 to hit, second 17 to hit, last 12 to hit. Expertise takes it to only first and last hit at 17 rolls. That's very strong.

I just checked my pure bard, he gets 51 AC with the gear I outlined (was a bit hard manipulating him since he doesn't have heavy armor, or a 12 DEX mod or 20 tumble)... maybe you didn't max perform to 50? I don't know exactly what you did with that build, but the numbers I drew out are possible for any pure bard who's STR based and can hit 50 perform (which is a little tough).

Final Note: DEX gets 5 more AC over STR?

I just reread bard song changes, they get +5 AC at L16.. geez screw 50 perform.. can get it even sooner.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Mon May 28, 2007 11:07 pm

I think the main problem with that picture Red is that we can't see a number of the other variables. Did you buff? What's your tumble score? That and Casas' math is right which makes me wonder why you can't replicate it.

It's not so much that we can't admit that we're wrong it's that as far as our math goes we're right however it seems to me that you can't copy what has been suggested. So I suppose it's more of a "why are we wrong" rather then "we're right you're wrong" situation. My suggestion would be to put on everything casas has suggested and check out your score then. If it's off then you're right, if not then you're wrong. Seems like a simple solution to me.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Mon May 28, 2007 11:09 pm

I checked my bard, Gnarr.. he came out to 51 AC. I think Gee didn't maximize his perform. After I read the journal, at L16 bard gets +5 AC from song.. so his PM should technically have 53 AC if it had a tower shield and the L9 bard song.

His log (of what I can see) says he used mage armor and song L7~8 don't know which, doesn't really matter.. but it does show he wasn't using L9 bardic song. (Extrapolated his song Lv based off STR + BAB + song AB)

What are these classes with higher AB and AC? Only one I can think of is pally/sorc or pally/bard or PM/RDD (which is lame ~glares at gnarr~) OR pure pally. Those classes do need to be looked at. But pure bard AB is the same (if not higher) as my WM's so.. and their AC is way higher.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Tue May 29, 2007 2:04 am

Xianio wrote:I think the main problem with that picture Red is that we can't see a number of the other variables. Did you buff? What's your tumble score? That and Casas' math is right which makes me wonder why you can't replicate it.

I buffed with mage armor. My perform is maxed at 23 without perform gear. My tumble is 20.

My point is that sure you can reach 50 AC and maybe even higher, but you have to have a poop load of gold to do it. And I don't know a bout you, but when I poop, it sure isn't gold. * Unless I eat a lot of peanuts. *

The only three level 20 melee's I have that isn't that one, is who I'm talking about.

A barbarian/fighter can have 44 AB with pendant and a +5 weapon.

-Edit- If my RDD had as much gold as it costs to equip this bard, he would have 61 AC with 36 AB and 38 taunt.. without expertise. Phantom would have 53 AC without taunt and 50 AB smites. Cyborg can have 45 AC with a heavy flail and 52 AB smites.

Post by **Rary** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:22 am

If bard's were fine at level 12+, then why not give them something for lower levels?
Maybe give the aura at lower levels.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:25 am

A fine idea, bards are shafted at low levels.. they don't have enough HP to survive most natural 20 rolls from attackers.

Gee if the barbarian takes the +5 amulet and wears cursed haste, then the bards stunning dagger will be even more devastating. My STR bard that I got 51 AC on, is L20 (not over 200k). He could afford all the bard gear that raised his song to L13 and still afford combat gear.