Hide / Move Silently / Spot / Listen

Post by **Rary** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:27 am

In the next month I will be totally redoing this balance. A good start is to get rid of all items boosting any of these skills and going from there. I want to make hide/ms item boosting after that roughly 10 points higher than spot/listen. But I don't want to add too many items for this.

Hopefully this will help those between 7-13 for sneaking around too. Cause right now you need money to hide.

I have to rule out those players that don't bother to try and find sneaks then complain about them if you know what I mean.

But ya hide/ms/spot/listen, the numbers got out of control. I have to blame myself, but now I need to fix it. Getting 70+ hide when only 25-37 is only possible without items is out of control. Doing this should also help sneaks at low levels be able to hide, plus those others be able to listen near 13th level.

I just want people to be aware because those with enchanced items will lose them when I start. I'll try and make the cituation smooth for everyone.

Now I need numbers: I know Xianio and Casas are best at that.

I need numbers for hide, ms, spot, and listen. Correct me if I'm wrong.
All skills (lvl 7,20) - 10,23 natural - 15,28 with feats/natural - 23,36 with stat mod's/natural - 28,41 with all but spells buffs and items.

Now, I have no clue all the spells that buff them other than these ones.
Truesight +10 spot
Harper Item +10 or +15. Gonna change since it was added to counter retarded high numbers.
Bard song +1 - +10 depending on level.
Amplify - +20 listen
Claraiudence is 10
Bard Curse is also -1~10.
Rangers gain +1 every 5 levels to a max of +5
Standing still gives you a +4 hide to your rolls.

I will add other information to this first post to keep this thread organized.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:07 am

Hide/Ms isn't badly skewed. We went over this indepth when you made the assassin garbs.. I believe we balanced the skills pretty well.

I would recommend making all ranged weapons have -5 MS on them.

Post by **Rary** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:31 am

-5 MS isn't bad for range weapons. I'll have to make the changes for all items, then see what spells there are out there that boost those skills and figure that out.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:34 am

Only 2 boost ms. Both are druid spells (rangers have a +4 ms one). Both spells give +4 ms and +4 hide. One's duration based, the other is aoe based. Not many druid sneaks though that have access to the later spell.

There should be more of those Chameleon / Owl weapons you had.. +5 Spot/Listen for other weapon divisions.

Post by **Rary** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:01 am

My goal is to make it to rogues/sneaks have a good chance to not be found, but not be impossible if player choose right build/items to use.

Modified first post again.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:13 am

Well rangers are supposed to find, and kill all sneak classes. So try not to nerf them again please.

Claraiudence is 10
Harper is 15 I do believe.
Bard Curse is also -1~10.

Post by **Rary** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:16 am

Casas wrote:Well rangers are supposed to find, and kill all sneak classes. So try not to nerf them again please.
Claraiudence is 10
Harper is 15 I do believe.
Bard Curse is also -1~10.

Ya, harper item will get changed if needed. It was to counter the high numbers to begin with. Song will prolly change to skills maxing at 8 instead of 10.

In any effect, I added your list to the one up above.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:30 am

Rangers gain +1 every 5 levels to a max of +5 (the first level counts as well).

Standing still gives you a +4 to your rolls.
I'm not sure how you did your stat moding but if you have +12 wisdom the stat mod to listen/spot is +12.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:30 am

(Note, I never add skill focus into equation.. I feel if someone wants to take that feat.. they should get the +15% avoidance to detect checks) Note 2, I never add in race abilities. They are small effects that shouldn't be balanced, as it would require all class means to go through the same build. Race bonuses should be just that, bonuses.

If you're going to require class bonuses in to balance everyone.. then that becomes the mean.. rangers. You shouldn't count favored enemy in that equation.. only skills, and gears. Look at spells later. Primarily don't count rangers, because everyone doesn't have 20 levels of rangers for a +5 bonus to detect.

Same goes to WIS. It's sorta effy.. I don't know how effective of a melee build you can have with maxed WIS and not being a cleric/druid.

Hide: 38 : Stealthy, 12~13 DEX, maxed skill.
MS: 38 : See above.
Spot : 23 : Maxed skill, 10 WIS.
Listen : 23 See Above.

15 difference. IMO equip should put that into a 5~10 range.

Post by **Rary** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:49 am

Ya, racial bonuses and ranger bonuses are bonuses and will be extra same as skill focus feat, but I still wanna know so I can work with others to balance. Helps us figure a solution.

Keep in mind, a seen rogue is a pointless rogue, so they definitely can't be easy to spot without really trying.

Also those numbers I provided above have 13 as max stat mod.

And ranger bonus, is that to what?

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:12 pm

Spot/Listen.. but like I said, if you make that the mean (average) then ALL classes will have to have it to be in that meaty area.

It should be just what it is, a class bonus.

A95 · Post by **A95** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:57 pm

Well, the highest listen/spot should be somehow be ableto be matched by any sneaker so the one hearing or spotting should have to use detect mode.

Protoss119 · Post by **Protoss119** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:11 pm

"THE DREDOC DOES NOT WANT TO BE NERFED."

-Dredoc Anthorngleas, in his own words

To be honest, I don't like this whole idea of helping sneakers sneak if sneakers can abuse that bonus. Are they not powerful enough already? I mean, as I've already said, if you try to gear up and attack one class, you get killed by another class. I know it's not possible to kill all classes, but I would AT LEAST like to be able to hold my own against a melee in listen/spot gear.

Musekaze · Post by **Musekaze** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:50 pm

well here s little crunching.
Hide:23 base, +2 Stelathy, +4 Skill Affinity Hide, +10 Elven Cloak, +3 Ring of Clouds x2, +10 Camoflauge (if ranger), +4 One with the land (if even more ranger/druid), +~10 or so from DEX, +4 Vine Mine (druid, not sure if rangers get), +4 standing still, +1-5 based on level=max of 82

MS:23 base, +2 Stealthy, +4 SA MS, +10 Elven Boots, +3 Ring of Clouds x2, +4 One with the land, +10~or so form DEX, +4 standing still=63

of course this is only attainable if pure ranger, maybe close if pure rouge.

Post by **Rary** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:55 pm

Musekaze gave a perfect example of why it needs redone.