Bard Tower Shield

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Wed May 23, 2007 12:53 am

Why can't bards use tower sheilds? I'm sure all you guys are still pissed off about bards being bards, but why the sheilds? That makes no sense. You're taking away 2 AC from shields. Most of the bards we saw and had problems with were greatsword strength bards. No shield.

What is the point of this? The max it does, as said, is take away 2 AC from bards that use tower shields. Tower shields are a double-edged swords for bards, because they give 50% spell failure. Bards are effected by this..

I just really do not agree with or understand this one guys.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Wed May 23, 2007 1:03 am

Too much AC. Their AC was a few points over the average range so it was lowered a few points.. Their records on the server were to good too. D6 hp or not, they could take down any melee other then CHA pally.

Although my naked STR bard took the biggest hit from 25% concealment.. He's worthless now.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Wed May 23, 2007 6:40 am

Pure str bards could reach something like 55 ac making them insanely powerful against melee's. Coupled with 50% conceal they'd crush just about everything. Now they're a little more balanced.

Post by **Rary** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:16 am

Spell failure means nothing when you can unequip a shield in the heat of battle, cast, then equip it again. If shields were like armor, then yes, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. But the 2 AC and concealment restriction put them down in the normal range. Bonus, they still beef up the team.

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:35 am

Pure str bards could reach something like 55 ac

Sigh you never actually did the math did you? Pura str bards could go pass 53 ac ONly if:
1. They had one feat to spare for expertise.
2. If they used the haste spell and the +5 natural ammy, and risked simply to get brutally dispelled,and don't give me the "it wan't be dispelled part" it Will be dispelled on the first dispell shot in most cases, your guys math about the dispells is correct however, it sadly doesn't happen in realyty, mords and greater dispells pretty much leave the bard naked mostly every time.

So no 55 ac with a perma haste item is a tad too much, Asuming you had a bard at least lvl 27 in cash and could afford the +5 boots and the +5 cloak the ac was 53, now it's 51 wchich is lower then the max ac of an pure charisma paladin with a 10 charisma modiffer.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:48 am

Pure bards can only be effectively dispelled by a mage. Of which they will lose to anyhow.

52 AC w/o the +5 fort cape. That's very doable.

Honestly, a great AC fix for all casters would be to ban expertise on them. Just have to figure a way to avoid harming multiclasses.

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:22 am

Oh clerics and druids do well with dispell 2

And you don't have to dispell a bard completely, striping bulls, mage armor and being immune to curse does it pretty well, also Casas you forget the awesome Mord rods wchich can be used by nonmages. Anyways I don't see why bards have to loose tower shields since there is a curse immunity, a conceal nerf, they are d6 melees with mid bab. Anyways if you wanna keep the tower shield nerf I'd suggest a slight modification, instead of the more then 50% bard lvls for no tower shield, make it lvl 11 and up too 20 no tower shields, bards get their song ac at lvl 11, until then it's really hard to play a bard and not get masacrated by every great axe dude that comes around and kills you with 3 hits, that way the high lvl bards would still be nerfed, but playing at the lvl 7-10 wouldn't be such a pain.

Post by **Rary** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:34 am

If you're going to spend 80,000 gold to strip a bard, you'll have bigger issues when you're short on armors and weapons.

Again the curse immunity helms are expensive as well let alone every sneak will own you now.

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » Wed May 23, 2007 12:20 pm

80k isn't that much for the high lvls a lvl 20 has still 110k to spend. Great axe or sword dudes don't care about ac, Paladins have GMW etc etc... The helmets in the current form are worse for the bards then the evoke armor was for the mages. Also IMO clerics shouldn't have acces to the helmets, clerics because they can remove curse and taunt with restoration.

LittleLostThief · Post by **LittleLostThief** » Wed May 23, 2007 9:54 pm

I can't believe that someone is arguing that bards are underpowered.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:03 pm

I'm still against the tower shield decision. I think it was sloppy.

The anti-bard crusade has reached it's climax.

A95 · Post by **A95** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:11 pm

With the amulet of ares, if people are smart enough to use them, bards can go down pretty easily.

Post by **Rary** » Thu May 24, 2007 8:38 am

Bards played good still own melee's without the shield.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Sat May 26, 2007 2:55 am

Okay, here's what I came up with. Multiclassed bards ( especially with paladin ) ' are ' extremely powerful, no doubt, but pure bards are ' not ' that ridiculously overpowered.

Pure bards have extreme diffculties with a LOT of classes and builds and just like any other character or build, you have to equip for them. Their low HP, low fort and reliability on spells leave them ultimately vulnerable. Out of all the bards on the server, what pure bards have you had trouble with? None. No one stays pure bard because they get no advantage on the server in comparison to other classes.

I say pure bards should not acquire these penalties. Give them no extra buffs, just allow them their conceal and shield back.

Rary disagree's with me because he thinks bards are more about team buffing than solo effort. That's a wise roleplaying decision, but not a good PvP server thought in my opinion. If that's the case, then clerics shouldn't get any form of conceal or stoneskin, heavy armor or large shields because they are only mean to heal and raise dead.

I'm being difficult on this issue, because I feel like it wasn't thought out well and is spiteful to the class when other classes are only getting stronger. Multi-class bards should keep the penalties if majority of level is bard, but pure bards shouldn't be restricted, since they face obsticales anyway.

-Edit- I also think any form of bard should not have expertise. Tumble whores.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Sat May 26, 2007 3:22 pm

( 10 base + 1 dex + 11 armor + 6 shield + 4 haste + 3 deflect +5 hardies + 5 exp + 2 mage armor + song AC + tumble AC- sometimes curse -AB plays with their AC ) = too much. Even w/o exp that's still 50 AC.