15-30 dmg?are you kidding me? with what a +5 ab kukri?with having the slight problem of not being able to wear the str belt and with more then likely having your bulls stripped away and having the awesome str drain effect of Negative Energy burst on? And from where exactly should that dmg come from? You say you've crashed through them fast, and I seriously doubt it since evasion is gone, Winning against loosers doesn't count I can beat mages like Flo as well with a bard, I repeat again I know the limits and as far as I recall My first Bard had bonus to saves from divine grace and yes it was more powerfull then a pure Bard(I'm not sure but I think I actually fought and beat yours.) and still when it came to a fight against Drunken, or Widget the result was always the same- with luck dying only 1;2 against the mage, and about 1;4 during the whole round well yeahI've crashed them geez...
Since freaking when 20 elemental dr is a soultion to mages? As Far as I recall they crank out MUCH more dmg with elemental spells, add to that they have magical dmg or negative dmg as the alternative(Neg protection rods can and are beeing dispelled)+7-9 divine dmg? ah so you assume that the bard/pally will have 24-28 charisma while wearing the resistance cloak, not having acces to the Paladin armor, charisma rings? wtf is the base charisma for that if you plan such high modiffers eh? At last mages are d4 true, however... they don't need to dramatically change their gear, they don't need saves or resistances against the bard, they have a constitution buff wchich bards don't have and average 200-300 hp where a bard has maybe 160 (wearing all this necesary antimage junk). You want more sure... the bard has after spawn first to reach the mage and then start bringing their Hp down, in the mean time he gets 2 empowered Ice storms(Just an example it's not the single deadly spell) and his Hp drops under 100 while the mage still has 200+ so that's an even fight?
Bards...again
Well that's an interesting take on what is required for anti-mage gear. However 1:4 for a class that is meant to be absolutely horrible against mages isn't a bad in the slightest. Do you know how well your average sneaker did against my mage before when I played it? It must have been 1:8 at best.
Secondly I've fought Widget with my bard. Yes Widget plays a good mage however widget is around level 28 I believe in cash. That's not even close to a fair fight even if you're level 20. No I"m also not kidding you with 15-30. 7 base, +5 enhancement + d4 = 13-16 x2 = 26-32 damage on crits. Exactly what I said it was. (That's if you're wearing only the gloves)
Now you keep saying evasion's gone. Well yes evasions been gone forever. My bard never had access to that either so if you believed that was how I was winning you're mistaken.
Now the charisma. I personally never buy resistance cloaks however +7-9 charisma from an empowered buff is easy to do and as Casas explained to you earilier that doesn't get dispelled if you use it beforehand. Which of course you should do. (Which I suppose makes your damage 20-25 or 40-50 damage a hit)
Now you've quoted fighting Drunken and winning 1:2 "sometimes" or 1:4 the rest. However Drunken is arguably the best played mage on our server. Saying the rest are "crap" is a little off. If you can do 1:2 to 1:4 against your strongest opponent with the strongest class then there is still something wrong.
(Oh and if you make the save to the strongest elemental spells and wear the dr ammy you'll take a max of 40 damage. 120 chain/2 = 60 - 20 = 40)
Secondly I've fought Widget with my bard. Yes Widget plays a good mage however widget is around level 28 I believe in cash. That's not even close to a fair fight even if you're level 20. No I"m also not kidding you with 15-30. 7 base, +5 enhancement + d4 = 13-16 x2 = 26-32 damage on crits. Exactly what I said it was. (That's if you're wearing only the gloves)
Now you keep saying evasion's gone. Well yes evasions been gone forever. My bard never had access to that either so if you believed that was how I was winning you're mistaken.
Now the charisma. I personally never buy resistance cloaks however +7-9 charisma from an empowered buff is easy to do and as Casas explained to you earilier that doesn't get dispelled if you use it beforehand. Which of course you should do. (Which I suppose makes your damage 20-25 or 40-50 damage a hit)
Now you've quoted fighting Drunken and winning 1:2 "sometimes" or 1:4 the rest. However Drunken is arguably the best played mage on our server. Saying the rest are "crap" is a little off. If you can do 1:2 to 1:4 against your strongest opponent with the strongest class then there is still something wrong.
(Oh and if you make the save to the strongest elemental spells and wear the dr ammy you'll take a max of 40 damage. 120 chain/2 = 60 - 20 = 40)
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Rafael
- Binder of Lost Souls
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- Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:06 pm
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Enchantment is gone for gmw is gone, so more like 7 +d4 >.> Widget wasn't past lvl 20 when I used my 16/bard/2pally/2ftr agains him. 1;4 isn't bad? I recall everyone going zomg if a class reached a 3;1 ratio.About the evasion you are wrong, everyone could wear that armors. If you choose empowered over still spells it's your choice, I personally prefer more important feats for a bard. If you wear cursed haste, elemental ammy then how do you expect your saves to be semi decent without the resistance cloak? I personally doubt the saves would be enough to protect you even vs Death Spells, not to mention saving a 30+dc spell to half. I know DM is locked but it also Doesn't last long, untill you reach the mage you get a thunder clap or 2, maybe some bigbys if your hp drops under `150 power word stun. That sometimes was before evasion was gone and only a result of his mistakes or forgetting something (for example he forgot to recat Shadow shield and hurt himself with horrids xP) but MOST of the time it was 1;4 total defeat if you ask me, Dunno what you mean with 1:4 beeing wrong thats anything but not a small thing, if you think that it's ok then uh well, shows how fair you are, as far as I recall the serwer was about to give any class a chance not total domination. 40 dmg is till a serious hit for a bard, and it's not like mages were limited only to elemetanl dmg.
It seems to me more like I'm talking with a wall then a person, you have your point of view I have mine it seems neither can convince the another so lets end this ok?
It seems to me more like I'm talking with a wall then a person, you have your point of view I have mine it seems neither can convince the another so lets end this ok?
The trouble is Rafael you're not listening to the points I'm saying. You keep putting up suggested ideas without any sort of fact behind them.
You don't need gmw to get a +5 kukri, they exist. Keen can't be dispelled, it's a bard spell. Evasion armor hasn't been on the server for months. Perhaps there was another set I never saw but the meduim armor I used to use has been gone for a long time. (Your bard is older then mine do remember)
Death spells are generally easy. There are half a dozen ways to be immune to them and more then a few which can't be dispelled. Even if you're getting hit with dispel's unless your spawn point really favours the mage generally you'll be beside them before the end of the second spell.
With +7-9 (before dispel of course) cha bonus you have more then good enough saves to make most saves 75% of the time. (save maybe fort and 1 +5 ring puts you over 30 easy) The cursed belt is only -3 to your saves. It's -15%, it's not "that" huge.
You also need to remember your bard doesn't take advantage of divine damage. It only has fear immunity and saves. +7-9 damage a hit is a lot of damage with a critical hit build. (I believe a keen kukri with imp. crit has a 13-20 crit range right?)
Also perhaps you don't fight mages as well as you could with a bard. When I play my bard I focus on having decent saves and gaining like +6-8 con via items. That's an extra 60-80 hp. I find that generally goes further then making sure you'll make every save.
I keep giving you examples of why what you're saying is wrong or at least slightly off. Most of the time you don't refute anything I say with stat's or numbers but rather with vague comments like (and I quote)
"I personally doubt the saves would be enough to protect you even vs Death Spells, not to mention saving a 30+dc spell to half."
I already understand that you don't "believe" these things are possible but that's probably because what our definition of "protected" means. Come back to this argument with some actual numbers as to why "it won't work" and then perhaps I won't be able to refute you.
You don't need gmw to get a +5 kukri, they exist. Keen can't be dispelled, it's a bard spell. Evasion armor hasn't been on the server for months. Perhaps there was another set I never saw but the meduim armor I used to use has been gone for a long time. (Your bard is older then mine do remember)
Death spells are generally easy. There are half a dozen ways to be immune to them and more then a few which can't be dispelled. Even if you're getting hit with dispel's unless your spawn point really favours the mage generally you'll be beside them before the end of the second spell.
With +7-9 (before dispel of course) cha bonus you have more then good enough saves to make most saves 75% of the time. (save maybe fort and 1 +5 ring puts you over 30 easy) The cursed belt is only -3 to your saves. It's -15%, it's not "that" huge.
You also need to remember your bard doesn't take advantage of divine damage. It only has fear immunity and saves. +7-9 damage a hit is a lot of damage with a critical hit build. (I believe a keen kukri with imp. crit has a 13-20 crit range right?)
Also perhaps you don't fight mages as well as you could with a bard. When I play my bard I focus on having decent saves and gaining like +6-8 con via items. That's an extra 60-80 hp. I find that generally goes further then making sure you'll make every save.
I keep giving you examples of why what you're saying is wrong or at least slightly off. Most of the time you don't refute anything I say with stat's or numbers but rather with vague comments like (and I quote)
"I personally doubt the saves would be enough to protect you even vs Death Spells, not to mention saving a 30+dc spell to half."
I already understand that you don't "believe" these things are possible but that's probably because what our definition of "protected" means. Come back to this argument with some actual numbers as to why "it won't work" and then perhaps I won't be able to refute you.
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T3hRedMage
- Eternal War's Mortician (PU)
- Posts: 912
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:59 pm
Enough pally/bard mixes.
Pure bards with tower shields and exp banned:
10 Base + 1 DEX + 11 heavy armor + 6 tower shield + 4 haste +5 hardies + 3 deflection + 2 mage armor (nat + dodge) + 4 tumble + 4 song = 48 acceptable for a pure bard.
Let's give them their towers back, granted that expertise can be banned for anyone with 10 or more bard levels and a paladin/cleric/rdd/pm level. Reasons why I choose 10 bard? That's when their song and spells begin to become good.
We must stop bard/pallys/clerics/pm/rdd's with with divine shield or insane base AC and bard song and expertise from existing.
Pure bards with tower shields and exp banned:
10 Base + 1 DEX + 11 heavy armor + 6 tower shield + 4 haste +5 hardies + 3 deflection + 2 mage armor (nat + dodge) + 4 tumble + 4 song = 48 acceptable for a pure bard.
Let's give them their towers back, granted that expertise can be banned for anyone with 10 or more bard levels and a paladin/cleric/rdd/pm level. Reasons why I choose 10 bard? That's when their song and spells begin to become good.
We must stop bard/pallys/clerics/pm/rdd's with with divine shield or insane base AC and bard song and expertise from existing.
Last edited by Casas on Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For such a lonely soul, you're having such a nice time.
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A95
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Rary
- Eternal War's Undertaker (DM,Admin)
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So you guys are complaining about them being weak to mages and thats all?
Expertise, I could just do what we suggested awhile ago. Expertise banned from all classes except the 1 BAB ones.
Biggest thing I hate about expertise is alot of swinging and no hitting.
I do like A95's sexy idea with - perform on divine feats or spells. Although it prolly sounds hurtful.
Bard song aura and duration was up'd years ago, that was when GMW gave +5 enchantments.
I can bring it back to normal and enable tower shield.
Expertise, I could just do what we suggested awhile ago. Expertise banned from all classes except the 1 BAB ones.
Biggest thing I hate about expertise is alot of swinging and no hitting.
I do like A95's sexy idea with - perform on divine feats or spells. Although it prolly sounds hurtful.
Bard song aura and duration was up'd years ago, that was when GMW gave +5 enchantments.
I can bring it back to normal and enable tower shield.
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T3hRedMage
- Eternal War's Mortician (PU)
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- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:59 pm
Most paladins don't pick expertise, since they focus on keeping 'some' wisdom, strength and charisma. Pure charisma paladins would probably never go higher than 10 INT.
However, this is basically to ensure that people who take maybe 4 levels of paladin can still have expertise.
I think it's an okay sacrifice. If you want to take 4 levels of another class to get divine shield to use with expertise. . instead of power attack. . then that's some sacrifice. It's better than taking 1 cleric level.
-Edit- Though I understand where you're coming from. Not only defending paladins, it's just that Bards don't need expertise. I never thought they did. I dont' think any class besides pure fighters and WM's need expertise, to be honest. It's basically the fact that Bards can lower AB so viciously, and their own bard song and tumble already adds to AC. . so a +5 AC for a -5 AB trade is a bit cheap, since you can lower AC by 10.
However, this is basically to ensure that people who take maybe 4 levels of paladin can still have expertise.
I think it's an okay sacrifice. If you want to take 4 levels of another class to get divine shield to use with expertise. . instead of power attack. . then that's some sacrifice. It's better than taking 1 cleric level.
-Edit- Though I understand where you're coming from. Not only defending paladins, it's just that Bards don't need expertise. I never thought they did. I dont' think any class besides pure fighters and WM's need expertise, to be honest. It's basically the fact that Bards can lower AB so viciously, and their own bard song and tumble already adds to AC. . so a +5 AC for a -5 AB trade is a bit cheap, since you can lower AC by 10.
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Rafael
- Binder of Lost Souls
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- Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:06 pm
- Location: Strzelce Opolskie, somwhere in Poland
I don't mind Bards loosing expertise really, only times when I used it were as counter to taunt or someone else's curse, But I still don't like bards loosing tower shields, moving bard song ac to higher lvls and such stuff, it just doesn't get to me, i mean yeah bard ac is high but not exepetionally high, main source of their unhitability was the conceal wchich is now basically 12,5% not much more then a Ghostly Visage.. I'd say lets restore the song to fully orginal no auras no higher ab no dr no nothing, no moving ac to different lvls, and give them their Towers back,because seriously they were a good powerfull class at first then got overpowered and now they lost a tad too much IMO.
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T3hRedMage
- Eternal War's Mortician (PU)
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Also at that time we had little sonic resistance and bard song protection. Now that that's addressed, I don't think our current advancements will benefit pure bards at all. That's the only incentive for going passed level 16 anyway.
What I want to fix is dexer bards being able to sneak their aura around people. Without that, there is ' no ' reason to build a dexer bard rather than a strength based bard. In the end, they won't win.
I would like to see that fixed and tower shields restored. There are enough items to help fight against them, just like mages.
What I want to fix is dexer bards being able to sneak their aura around people. Without that, there is ' no ' reason to build a dexer bard rather than a strength based bard. In the end, they won't win.
I would like to see that fixed and tower shields restored. There are enough items to help fight against them, just like mages.