Sorry. I meant to click quote, but I edited your post instead Casas. Hopefully you still remember what you typed. >.>;T3hRedMage wrote:Where's the deflect coming from? All that is rather expensive. Casually, not extreme, a bard will have around 46-47 AC if they wear heavy armor. If you want to pretend every build has that much cash to prep for, then you have to pretend their opponent has that much gear to protect themselves from bards specifically.( 10 base + 1 dex + 11 armor + 6 shield + 4 haste + 3 deflect +5 hardies + 5 exp + 2 mage armor + song AC + tumble AC- sometimes curse -AB plays with their AC ) = too much. Even w/o exp that's still 50 AC.
Bard Tower Shield
-
T3hRedMage
- Eternal War's Mortician (PU)
- Posts: 912
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:59 pm
My pure bard wins I'd say 80%+ of all fights he's in. He was level 17-18 when I last played him. Only people who really beat him with any regularity were higher level bard/pally's and pure pally's. Most casters had trouble as my char uses a +5 weapon and most melee's rarely hit me while I do around 30 damage a pop.
Pure bards are pretty bad up until level 14 or so. Once they reach that point they're monsters. The pally/bard combo is a stronger build overall but in no way is it required to beat most melees with a bard. My bard also doesn't have expertise.
Pure bards are pretty bad up until level 14 or so. Once they reach that point they're monsters. The pally/bard combo is a stronger build overall but in no way is it required to beat most melees with a bard. My bard also doesn't have expertise.
-
Rafael
- Binder of Lost Souls
- Posts: 314
- Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:06 pm
- Location: Strzelce Opolskie, somwhere in Poland
Actually in bard fights the one who gets cursed looses. Most casters had problems with you? I'd say2-3 horrids or some empowered Ice storms or bb's for the clerics and yer dead. Gee is right about the ac, my Serafiel has 48 without using expertise on lvl 20, So she gets hit by: AA's, Babarians, Paladins,Rdd's(They can reach 40 abor more depending on what build you made). That's hardly any melee I can beat there... Oh and now since monks barbs and 2 others i don't remember have mord powers.... Dispelled bards are so hilarious.
-
A95
You can't taunt a pure bard because pure bards have at least 43 concentration if they put points into it. That's before gear and modifiers. A bard with concentration can't be taunted...casas is right.
My bard always had more trouble with Clerics A95 as they were harder to hit and I couldn't resist any of there damage for the most part. Most wizards tried to do what you suggested Rafeal but I'd resist nearly all the cold damage, acid damage from there sheild and I'd nearly never fail a fort save as I'd generally have 30+ fort with my fort rings on. In the end they'd die pretty quickly. I think if I had had more money or been level 20 I could have afforded the immunity gear to make clerics a bit easier to beat but alas I only got to level 18 before going on my long break and lost that char.
My bard always had more trouble with Clerics A95 as they were harder to hit and I couldn't resist any of there damage for the most part. Most wizards tried to do what you suggested Rafeal but I'd resist nearly all the cold damage, acid damage from there sheild and I'd nearly never fail a fort save as I'd generally have 30+ fort with my fort rings on. In the end they'd die pretty quickly. I think if I had had more money or been level 20 I could have afforded the immunity gear to make clerics a bit easier to beat but alas I only got to level 18 before going on my long break and lost that char.
-
T3hRedMage
- Eternal War's Mortician (PU)
- Posts: 912
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:59 pm
+3 ring does not stack with amulet and cloak.
You can not have 43 concentration before gear and mods. Song gives 20 concentration? Bards are hard to taunt, especially if you stack song and curse, but with all the taunt gear available, I'd say it is NOT impossible. Not everyone is making the same pure bard here. You both are wrong.
If your bard was not a gnome and not wearing that evasion armor, you know that you would of had trouble with any decent mage, cleric and druid. That's four classes with an advantage. Listen gear is down now and MS is able to be maxed by equipment by rogues who can set DC 32 dispel traps for 7500 gold. Rogues have a chance against bards now. That's five classes. Barbarians, Fighters, RDD's, DD's, BG, CoT, Paladins can all reach over 40 AB in the server now, which makes 50 AC approachable.
You guys forget you're good at making characters. How many OTHER classes have you taken advantage of that do very well overall? Pure bards are not overpowered.
The new rule for pure bard is:
They are allowed their shields back.
A stun DC is going onto their aura.
Their concealment is staying nerfed.
You can not have 43 concentration before gear and mods. Song gives 20 concentration? Bards are hard to taunt, especially if you stack song and curse, but with all the taunt gear available, I'd say it is NOT impossible. Not everyone is making the same pure bard here. You both are wrong.
If your bard was not a gnome and not wearing that evasion armor, you know that you would of had trouble with any decent mage, cleric and druid. That's four classes with an advantage. Listen gear is down now and MS is able to be maxed by equipment by rogues who can set DC 32 dispel traps for 7500 gold. Rogues have a chance against bards now. That's five classes. Barbarians, Fighters, RDD's, DD's, BG, CoT, Paladins can all reach over 40 AB in the server now, which makes 50 AC approachable.
You guys forget you're good at making characters. How many OTHER classes have you taken advantage of that do very well overall? Pure bards are not overpowered.
The new rule for pure bard is:
They are allowed their shields back.
A stun DC is going onto their aura.
Their concealment is staying nerfed.
The song gives +20 at level 20 to all skills. Unless it's been changed then I'm wrong. But if so then 23 points in a skill +20 to the skill is 43 concentration. That along with one helmet gives 53 which makes it damn near impossible to taunt them...let alone for -6 ac. It doesn't matter if we're all making the same bard, max'd perform (something every bard takes at least on every bard level) along with concentration make for nearly untouchable dc's on concentration. The only concession I'd give to this is if the bard didn't take concentration as a skill...and foolish on them if they didn't.
The traps of course give a very difficult options here however that's nothing 2 reflex rings won't block on a strength bard and a dex bard wouldn't even need to worry. Amplify still gives whatever it gives (+20 is the default I don't know if it's changed but if it's still +20 that's again 43 listen without one peice of gear then you have the song on top of that which "could" while using a pure bard give you 63 without listen gear...also the argument could be made that the duration is short...20 rounds ie: 2 turns however is a pretty decent stretch of time for something which can easily be cast about 6-7 times).
However why discredit taking the evasion armor/anti-mage gear? If we're talking about 1 on 1 then those things should be expected and treated as very much part of the fight. If we're not talking about 1 on 1 well that offers dozens upon dozens of variables now doesn't it?
Truthfully I don't this change will be a good thing. You'll just find that pure bards will crack open nearly all melees once they reach level 14-20 and we'll be in the same spot we were before. But hey, not many people play bards anyway as they're such bastards to level at the start so it might not even matter
The traps of course give a very difficult options here however that's nothing 2 reflex rings won't block on a strength bard and a dex bard wouldn't even need to worry. Amplify still gives whatever it gives (+20 is the default I don't know if it's changed but if it's still +20 that's again 43 listen without one peice of gear then you have the song on top of that which "could" while using a pure bard give you 63 without listen gear...also the argument could be made that the duration is short...20 rounds ie: 2 turns however is a pretty decent stretch of time for something which can easily be cast about 6-7 times).
However why discredit taking the evasion armor/anti-mage gear? If we're talking about 1 on 1 then those things should be expected and treated as very much part of the fight. If we're not talking about 1 on 1 well that offers dozens upon dozens of variables now doesn't it?
Truthfully I don't this change will be a good thing. You'll just find that pure bards will crack open nearly all melees once they reach level 14-20 and we'll be in the same spot we were before. But hey, not many people play bards anyway as they're such bastards to level at the start so it might not even matter
-
T3hRedMage
- Eternal War's Mortician (PU)
- Posts: 912
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:59 pm
Giving them their shields back isn't going to cause chaos. Multiclass bards will still recieve all the previous penalties.
Level 20 bard song does not give +20 to all skills. At most without 72 perform, it'll give +3-5 on all skills.
Amplify is nerfed to 5 or 10 listen.
What about petrify traps?
I'm just giving you various situations in a broad perspective that pure bards can be hurt, damaged and defeated. You all gave plenty of scenarious and description on how they can defeat everything and how they are gods on earth, I'm just disagreeing with you by supporting it with equipment from the server.
Level 20 bard song does not give +20 to all skills. At most without 72 perform, it'll give +3-5 on all skills.
Amplify is nerfed to 5 or 10 listen.
What about petrify traps?
I'm just giving you various situations in a broad perspective that pure bards can be hurt, damaged and defeated. You all gave plenty of scenarious and description on how they can defeat everything and how they are gods on earth, I'm just disagreeing with you by supporting it with equipment from the server.
Right right it gives +10 sorry, and that's with 50 perform. More manageable but overall still a massive increase.
I understand what you were trying to do however nobody was saying "bards cannot be beaten" we were just saying that "bards cannot be beaten in melee like the rest of the classes." I mean yes it's a d6 class and yes that makes you have 80 hp less then most (50 after song but whatever) but adding 2 ac to them only compounds the difficulties other melees have with them already.
If you were doing this for multi-bards getting the stiff end I would suggest giving the level requirements on sheilds. Such as if you take 12 or more levels in bard you can't use anything but what they can now. You know before they gain any insane ac from there song. Doing that would be more fair then making all bards gain tower sheilds again (plus that way we could keep bard/paladins ac somewhat lower as that stupid class combo can reach stupidly high ac's when using divine sheild).
I understand what you were trying to do however nobody was saying "bards cannot be beaten" we were just saying that "bards cannot be beaten in melee like the rest of the classes." I mean yes it's a d6 class and yes that makes you have 80 hp less then most (50 after song but whatever) but adding 2 ac to them only compounds the difficulties other melees have with them already.
If you were doing this for multi-bards getting the stiff end I would suggest giving the level requirements on sheilds. Such as if you take 12 or more levels in bard you can't use anything but what they can now. You know before they gain any insane ac from there song. Doing that would be more fair then making all bards gain tower sheilds again (plus that way we could keep bard/paladins ac somewhat lower as that stupid class combo can reach stupidly high ac's when using divine sheild).
Well I'd hope not after those nerfs we administered. They were though. Bard song needs to be returned to bioware default - all enhancements to it, removed.Pure bards are not overpowered.
43 Conc is song + helm and + CON is a bit higher.. not much though. The +3 ring stacking with what amulet? They get 50 AC easy w/o exp with that +3 ring. My numbers are correct.+3 ring does not stack with amulet and cloak.
You can not have 43 concentration before gear and mods.
Giving them a stun aura is insane. I'm against that the entire way. Ask Rary what pure bards point ratio's were averaging before we made this nerf.
Song here I believe is capped at 50 perform, which isn't difficult to get. You put on the perform gear, song and swap it with better equip.
The various situations you gave Gee, were all vs rogue.. of which they can hear, but a good ranged-cs rogue should win. (Melee doesn't stand much a chance).
Before the nerfs I had a naked STR bard.. he never lost to a single melee 1-1, except pally because pally can't really miss naked bard. They have a lot of power still.
For such a lonely soul, you're having such a nice time.
-
T3hRedMage
- Eternal War's Mortician (PU)
- Posts: 912
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:59 pm
The ring doesn't stack with boots and cloak or any AC amulet. You can't get 50 AC with a pure strength bard without expertise or without having over 270 K gold.
I gave plenty of situations on how any caster class and the majority of melee classes and stand up to a bard. I just described the rogue situation out a bit because it seems the most unfathomable.
Stun aura was Rary's idea.
+7 to all skills at level 20 if you have 50 perform.
I gave plenty of situations on how any caster class and the majority of melee classes and stand up to a bard. I just described the rogue situation out a bit because it seems the most unfathomable.
Stun aura was Rary's idea.
+7 to all skills at level 20 if you have 50 perform.