Lord Mephisto's Suggestions: PART 1

[Lord Mephisto]

1. SPEED OF LEVELING

It's actually pretty good. I've seen people get to level 14 in a day. I'd rather increase the XP you get for -4 to +2 from your level and lower the XP you get for people +3 and +4 your level. But I haven't touched it because it seems to be pretty good right now.

It seems I have missed something in the leveling speeds. Several people have told me that it can be done quickly.

The questions is, can it be done quickly by only a few who know how to do it and have the time and opportunity to do what they need? Or is it easily done by everyone with a few hours available for play each day?

I don't want it to be too quick, that takes away a lot of fun learning how toe play your character at all the different levels.

Perhaps I haven't been much on at peak times?

I will have to investigate further to make up my mind. Thanks for the feedback.

3. ITEM BALANCE

Bringing in WIS items would make monks/clerics pretty damn powerful.

Bringing in CHR items would make paladins/sorcerers/bards pretty damn powerful as well.

There shouldn't be any improved evasion items out there anymore. Mind spell immunity should only have a few items there. Amulet is 10k. One of the weapons has it too. I do agree with saving throws are easy to get, but DC's are easy to increase. Items with the saving throw bonuses I think are pretty balanced right now for what mages are getting for DC's.

Saving throws works fairly well in the beginning. But each step towards level 20, it becomes more and more broken. Saves increase much quicker than DCs. This is simply because spell DC is only determined by spell level, ability modifier and spell focus feats. Saves are determined by character level, ability modifiers, items, feats and skills.

It is basicly much easier to build a character with high saves only failing on a natural one than it is to build a character with high DCs where the enemy fail often.

Reducing the universal saving throw bonus items a little and removing the Paladin save exploit could very well fix this problem once and for all.

But I agree, it is a delicate balance. And it is not bad as it is today. And basicly a high-level problem.

5. SPELL BALANCE
HOLY SWORD:

I was told last month this spell is useless.

But anyways if you add a +5 enchantment and 2d6 damage, you will destroy all mages out there. +5 with no extra damage would be better for this spell.

I can never remember to have been stricken with a Holy Sword without ending up without buffs.

Look in the spell script, the weapon property Holy Sword does strange things indeed.

And actually, the damage isn't the worst part. It's the auto-dispel.

5. SPELL BALANCE
SPELL MANTLES:

Seems nice, but I'm not familiar with mages that much to comment on it.

This one is a difficult one. But I just think the spell mantles as they exist today are very boring.

All mage combat is more or less about spell mantles and spell breaches. The one who gets action cancelled first loses...

I find it dull, repeatetive and somewhat dumb. It would be more fun to add tactical uses requireing more skill and forethought.

I am not saying my suggestion is perfect, but I think it would indeed add some spice. And we all love our food with some extra taste, don't we?

5. SPELL BALANCE
DISPEL MAGIC:

I love the idea.

Good, I have been pondering and testing this one for quite some time.

I always thought dispel checks and dispelling magic had crude and unfinished rules. With some change here, it could add a new dimension to dispelling.

And it would not become too large an impact from the normal rules either, it would never take away the randomness of the d20, which it never should.

5. SPELL BALANCE
HORRID WILTING:

Hmm, this spell should be magical damage. What's it doing now?

I think it is still doing magical damage, as well could or should.

But I am not especially fond of the Death Immunity protecting against it since it is not really a death spell.

After all, it is a level 8 damage spell which you cannot safely spam all around you not slaying team members, etc.

Anyways great input on all your suggestions. D&D is the way I want to go as well, but killing nothing but "Human Beings" and not controlled variety of NPC's makes some spells useless and others used alot.

Thanks, my purpose is to make things more balanced and add more fun.

Now, I really should be goind to bed... Work in 4 hours...

[A95]

Death immunity does not give immunity to wilting, know your stuff before posting.

[Casas]

Who are you?

Was really wondering, because you never introduced yourself. Good to have you on the forums.

HOLY SWORD:

Holy sword IS greater dispel upon hit.. it has been for over a year.

Thunderclap

Oops you got me, I'm one off on the DC.. sorry it's 33 (34 INT is the mean for wizards) not 34 DC. And it forces ALL three saves, anyone can max one save easy.. but all 3 is very, very difficult. It's an extremely powerful spell.. and is spammed ALL the time. It needs a nerf over a buff.

Also note, if you think taking Focus in Evocation is dumb.. you must make one terrible wizard.

Flame Arrow

Touch is base AC only. No dodge, no armor, no gear, only DEX and any natural AC bonuses from class.. the highest I've seen is RDD/PM and it's base is about 34? (Guessing) mage BAB + ts is 30.. so they have to roll a 4 to beat that.. Not difficult. I believe the average base AC (of my PCs anyway) is about 15. Touch is the most effective means of hitting someone.

ENERVATION:

I find no fault here, excellent.

ENERGY DRAIN:

Cannot have -CON on a save.. they could do up to 7d2 CON damage easily.

simple cheap trinket to avoid a level 8 damage spell.

I've never seen Death Ward block or even aid against horrid. This is true? I must test.

Leveling

Get online when the server has 18+ people and goes into happy hour. Levels galore. Heck, don't even need happy hour for 18+

[Lord Mephisto]

Death immunity does not give immunity to wilting, know your stuff before posting.

Well, it certainly says so in my ingame journal. If that is a mistake, it should be removed from the journal.

But I cannot confirm it or not at this point since my old level 20 mage has been deleted and my new one is too low level for level 8 spells yet.

[Lord Mephisto]

HOLY SWORD: Holy sword IS greater dispel upon hit.. it has been for over a year.

Well, then the server must be using a modified script. And I see no reference to any change of this spell in the journal. I might have missed it though, I'll look again.

But even if it "only" was Greater Dispelling on hit, this is much MUCH too overpowered.

Give them the tactical ability they should have, the opportunity to cast Greater Dispelling (level 15) once per round. But not On Hit.

Thunderclap

Oops you got me, I'm one off on the DC.. sorry it's 33 (34 INT is the mean for wizards) not 34 DC. And it forces ALL three saves, anyone can max one save easy.. but all 3 is very, very difficult. It's an extremely powerful spell.. and is spammed ALL the time. It needs a nerf over a buff.

How is this spell powerful compared to for example Knockdown which basicly does the same thing for one round? But with a greater chance of success unlimited uses per day?

Also note, if you think taking Focus in Evocation is dumb.. you must make one terrible wizard.

How many wizards have you been playing? Spell Focus feats are for the most time rather dumb, because you usually end up fighting people only failing on natural 1s anyway.

And there are spell schools much more sinister to choose Spell Focus feats in... Believe me...

Flame Arrow

Touch is base AC only. No dodge, no armor, no gear, only DEX and any natural AC bonuses from class.. the highest I've seen is RDD/PM and it's base is about 34? (Guessing) mage BAB + ts is 30.. so they have to roll a 4 to beat that.. Not difficult. I believe the average base AC (of my PCs anyway) is about 15. Touch is the most effective means of hitting someone.

I think you have misunderstood how touch attacks work.

Touch AC = 10 + dexterity bonus + dodge bonus + deflection bonus

simple cheap trinket to avoid a level 8 damage spell.

I've never seen Death Ward block or even aid against horrid. This is true? I must test.

It will protect against that spell IF what is stated in the journal is true. Otherwise, it will have no effect.

I will have to start playing my new wizard a great deal for the weekend to get to a level where I can test it.

[Rafael]

Holy sword uses a custom script, isn't +5 anymore and the greater dispell on hit isn't that much of a pain because you have to hit actually a mage or other caster class wchich isn't that easy considering that mages lik Alen or Drunken Mage can get 47ish ac :>, Horrid isn't blockable at all trust mi on that my bards always end up horrid spammed. Evoke is really usefull to focus on far more than necro since there is death ward.As for the saves to max out all 3 of them if you aren't a charisma pally you need to spend a whole ton of cash universal save +5 rings are what? 53k? the cloak is 37k or so... over 140k to have all saves good, also there is the problem of mage dmg shields so if you want to wear elemental protection you have -5 saves from the belt so don't give me that save vs dc inbalance if it was so mages or casters wouldn't be the best builds on this serwer.

[Lord Mephisto]

Holy sword uses a custom script, isn't +5 anymore and the greater dispell on hit isn't that much of a pain because you have to hit actually a mage or other caster class wchich isn't that easy considering that mages lik Alen or Drunken Mage can get 47ish ac :>,

Good to hear Holy Sword uses a custom script. But Greater Dispelling On Hit instead as a casting standard action is extremely more powerful.

Just consider any level Paladin with access to level 4 spells and thus Holy Sword against for example a level 20 sorcerer or cleric. The difference in caster levels are only 5, making the chance of dispel for each and every effect on a maximum level caster the following:

1d20 + 15 > 1d20 + 20

On average (approximatily), the paladin would need to roll 5 better than the caster. If the caster rolls 10 and 11, the paladin would need to roll 16 or 17. And thus, there are approximatily on average a 5/20 = 25 % chance of dispelling each effect separately.

Given just a few swings (3), the chance to dispel one separate effect and all the effects are about 60 %. And this is easily done in one or two rounds. This is of course a simplified example.

Super high AC built casters have other weaknesses and pay dearly for their high AC, not including clerics. Getting AC 47 as a mage is not exactly an easy task.

10 base + 4 armor + 4 deflextion + 5 natural + 1 dodge + 2 tumble (if monk) + 2 monk AC (if monk) + 4 haste + 5 dexterity = AC 37

It can be tweaked a little, but this is pretty close to optimal AC for a mage. Include Improved Expertice, and it becomes AC 47, but this feat has been abused and will probably be changed from what I have heard.

Give them Greater Dispelling as a spell-like ability which can be attempted to cast once per round. That is still a minimum of 25 % chance of dispelling all effects from any caster per round!

Horrid isn't blockable at all trust mi on that my bards always end up horrid spammed.

Good. It should be removed from the journal to ensure no one else gets confused.

Evoke is really usefull to focus on far more than necro since there is death ward.

I wasn't thinking of Spell Focus: Necromancy. There are other more sinister choices if choosing spell focus feats are done at all...

As for the saves to max out all 3 of them if you aren't a charisma pally you need to spend a whole ton of cash universal save +5 rings are what? 53k? the cloak is 37k or so... over 140k to have all saves good, also there is the problem of mage dmg shields so if you want to wear elemental protection you have -5 saves from the belt so don't give me that save vs dc inbalance if it was so mages or casters wouldn't be the best builds on this serwer.

Keep in mind there are immunity items from for example mind-affecting effects. Also against death magic. Most characters don't need to gain extremely high saves on all three, just the ones they aren't immune against.

But you do have an excellent point. Paladin abuse causes a lot of unfair situations and should be handled in a decent manner.

[Rafael]

10 base + 4 armor + 4 deflextion + 5 natural + 1 dodge + 2 tumble (if monk) + 2 monk AC (if monk) + 4 haste + 5 dexterity = AC 37

actually it's more likely : 10 base+3 armor+5deflection+5natural+6dodge+4(tha lvl 1 spell dunno his english name ;p)+2PM(for drunkens and deseths build )+9dex+1size modiffer(for halflings and gnomes ;p)=45 ac without expertise for haling/gnome 19wiz/PM. so yea 47 was a tad to high but hey so a pure wizzy gets 42-43 ac, and expertise still isn't banned for casters. As for clerics they get even higher and since the bab nerf we mainly have caster clerics or Zen clerics such as Deseth's bbq.

[Casas]

Holy Sword

It's not. Try it out before forming an opinion. And.. just to note dispel checks are static. The wizard saving the dispel is a static number based on his total caster level (if he's 20 it's a 31 dc). So it would be d20+15 vs 31 each dispel. That's a 20% min based on each dipel hit.

Thunderclap

An AOE kd? Kd can have immunity one of two ways, the amulet or buying disc items. Thunderclap requires both mind immunity and kd immunity (impossible w/o spells) or high saves in all three fields.

Most characters don't need to gain extremely high saves on all three

Spell Focus

Wizards need this to increase their DCs up by 4. If their saves were in range before they are now 20% more difficult to make. I don't like Enchantment focus. I'm not a fan of any coup de grace spell that lasts over a minute. I want all those type spells capped at 1 turn. Mages don't need more than 10 rounds of uninterrupted casting time to kill someone.

Flame Arrow

Oh yea.. forgot dodge/deflection add too. Got me twice. Still it is the most effective means of hitting someone.

AC

Your AC figures are off. well 37 is about it for a 190k wizard, but the numbers you inputed were off.. but the final product is close enough. And rafeal, you made a wizard with 28 DEX? AND 5 natural?

[Lord Mephisto]

10 base + 4 armor + 4 deflextion + 5 natural + 1 dodge + 2 tumble (if monk) + 2 monk AC (if monk) + 4 haste + 5 dexterity = AC 37

actually it's more likely : 10 base+3 armor+5deflection+5natural+6dodge+4(tha lvl 1 spell dunno his english name ;p)+2PM(for drunkens and deseths build )+9dex+1size modiffer(for halflings and gnomes ;p)=45 ac without expertise for haling/gnome 19wiz/PM. so yea 47 was a tad to high but hey so a pure wizzy gets 42-43 ac, and expertise still isn't banned for casters. As for clerics they get even higher and since the bab nerf we mainly have caster clerics or Zen clerics such as Deseth's bbq.

Hmmm... I seem to have forgotten about the dodge AC bonus items and size modifiers.

But...

+9 Dexterity bonus would require a Dexterity Score of 28. That would require +12 from items on a base dexterity of 16. That leaves little for charisma/intelligence/constitution. It represents the extreme of dexterity for a caster with a heavy toll on other abilities.

+2 AC from a Pale Master level would also do more harm than good. Losing caster levels are a bad thing.

+6 dodge... What items and feats grant such a combination available for casters? And to what cost? AC isn't the only thing to be wary of for casters. Especially not for casters actually.

And it seems you have added armor bonuses twice. +3 from clothing and +4 for Mage Armor, they don't stack. For a Cleric though, it would stack and be a total of +12, which is a lot.

So, it's not quite as high as you say. Not without "cheating" with Improved Expertice.

And also remember that dodge and dexterity bonuses to AC are fragile things if you don't have Uncanny Dodge.

And always keep in mind there are other important things to consider than pure AC. Spell DC, bonus spells, damage resistance, saving throws, etc. It is not possible to argue that just because one particular build with an item focus towards AC gets a high AC, then the autodispelling effect of Holy Sword is allright because you can't always hit them. It's like saying +12 weapons should be allowed to help hitting people with tower shields.

[Rafael]

I'll take 16 dex 16 con and 17 int and I'll have max dcs and a dexterity of 28 and 34 int at lvl 20 without any dc or spell slot lost, with PM you gain ac listen stealth and don't loose spell slots so you gain ability to detect sneaks and to hide yourself yea thats a bad idea...+6dodge=+1mage armor and +5 boots of hardiness. and as the +4 I don't mean mage armor there is another +4ac spell. saves and dc's are fine, if som eone wants to spend their cash on saves then please there are no save or always dmg spells(Ice storm horrid),I up my bards saves to 30+on each and I haven't beaten a good mage even once in a duel (so 1v1 and first death counts),didn't matter if I had evasion death ward or elemental resist,it always required at least 2 deaths.
IF anything a charisma paladin beats a mage because of the divine and magic dmg, holy sword isn't helpfull and it is the only waepon buf that really gets dispelled, so I don't see a problem. I really don't see mages screaming for help, for example I'm far away from being skilled with the wiz or sorc class, but i got to lvl 17 without big problems in about 8 hours and with a 3:1 point ratio.

[Casas]

Mage AC has already been addressed in another post.

Do remember though, mage are anti bard. This server has rock-paper-scissor balance. Another reason to prevent dispel from removing weapon buffs, is holysword. Kinda lame if a mage can just use Mordenkain to protect himself from dispel upon hit.. He's got DR conceal and moderate AC for that.

How does what stack for a cleric up to +12? Mage armor doesn't stack for anything but the dodge. Only dodge bonuses stack in this game (up to +20). Mage armor normally will only give +1 (dodge) or rarely +2 (if they don't have natural armor bonus then it's dodge + natural armor).

[Rary]

You guys can stop pestering Lord. He does have some good feedback.

But anyways I think onhit properties for weapons don't go off unless you actually hit them, some are only on critical hits.
So an onhit dispel doesn't work if you can't punch through DR or skins. Making the holy sword powerful when it was +5/dispel, then they were just ripping through mages like swiss chesse.

I'm thinking of removing expertise from all classes except from the 1 BAB per level ones. Or atleast just the mages. Just not sure how to go about it yet.

Last time I checked horrids, it does use save vs death, so being immune to death and stopping horrids wouldn't surprise me. I don't know if it does or not though it was definitely in there and I doubt I removed it.

[Casas]

I'm not pestering him. I'm trying to correct him (well possibly the same thing). He's wrong on a few points. And other points aren't balanced, so we're discussing a way to reach balance.

[Lord Mephisto]

I'll take 16 dex 16 con and 17 int and I'll have max dcs and a dexterity of 28 and 34 int at lvl 20 without any dc or spell slot lost, with PM you gain ac listen stealth and don't loose spell slots so you gain ability to detect sneaks and to hide yourself yea thats a bad idea...

There are other aspects you shouldn't ignore.

True, you gain spell slots on the 1 Pale Master level. But do you gain more known spells and caster levels? You know the anwer, it is NO. And this is pain right in the heart of an arcane caster.

And tell me. Which items would you put on to get +12 on dexterity and intelligence/charisma at once? It simply can't be done. And even if it did, it wouldn't be wise because you would be weak in other aspects than pure AC. And as mentioned before, keep in mind that dexterity and dodge based AC isn't very reliable for a caster.

The AC mage is not as good as it sounds. But I feel we are drifting off track here.

+6dodge=+1mage armor and +5 boots of hardiness. and as the +4 I don't mean mage armor there is another +4ac spell. saves and dc's are fine.

Please, let us try to avoid more confusion. Don't mix up the different AC types, it is difficult enough as it is. The AC types are:

* Armor (base and enchantements)
* Shield (base and enchantements)
* Deflection (enchantement)
* Dexterity (ability modifier)
* Dodge (special abilities, boots and spells)
* Natural (natural/racial and enchantement)

Some stack and some don't.

The character you made as an example above would have the following AC with the best available equipment:
10 (base character AC) + 4 (Mage Armor OR armor bonuses) + 4 (Shield OR deflection bonuses) + 9 (dexterity modifier) + 1 (size modifier) + 1 (Dodge feat) + 5 (natural) + 2 (Pale Master) + 5 (Boots of Hardiness) = 41 AC.

But again, I feel we are debating something completely different than what I originally had suggested. Oh well.

if som eone wants to spend their cash on saves then please there are no save or always dmg spells(Ice storm horrid),I up my bards saves to 30+on each and I haven't beaten a good mage even once in a duel (so 1v1 and first death counts),didn't matter if I had evasion death ward or elemental resist,it always required at least 2 deaths.

Just because you have trouble against mages with your bards does not imply that something is wrong. And if you have been playing against a very good mage in addition to your character might not be the optimal choice against a mage, this further strengthens my point.

IF anything a charisma paladin beats a mage because of the divine and magic dmg, holy sword isn't helpfull and it is the only waepon buf that really gets dispelled, so I don't see a problem.

The spell appears to have been changed since the last time I was fighting Paladins with level 20 characters. And for the better it seems. The last time, it took Paladins just one single round to dispel all my effects, and that was with maximum caster level (20).