Bards...again

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:59 pm

Well back once again to these guys. I was fighting with A95's bard today (pure bard with expertise, taunt blah blah normal bard) and even using a pure ranger with ALL ways to raise AB (reached about 38) I could still barely hit him and he wasn't even using curse song.

We're both level 18 and I need to say that there is something definitely wrong when a char with maximum ab, good build and occasionally getting sneaking hits can't hit a character more then once a round.

A95 was saying he could reach 53 normally with expertise. (I don't know if that's with song or not...but I believe so) Now at level 18 you can't have all the AC gear on the server and you also can't have all the best gear on the server by any means. That just means he's not done and his AC will get higher.

To me it seems wrong when a class can completely and utterly counter another with no hope of being beaten. A bard basically does this to nearly all melees. I know the argument is that mages destroy them, however this is not the case. Mages beat bards I'd say 1:1. There is more then enough mage gear on our server to allow a bard to overcome there lack of saves and hp by using +5 weaponry, near immunity to elemental damage and +5 save rings. A mage and a bard is a good fight, not a one sided one.

I personally think we should take expertise away from bards. Bards DO need AC but giving them +10 with little penalty (+5 from normal expertise, + 5 more from song and -5 enemy AC basically means no penalty) isn't right. To counter a bards curse song you need to lower your ac/ab/saves (helmet or ammy the ammy is worst as it makes you need to replace your belt with the haste one lowering all three as you can't wear dex/str belts) so to say "just make yourself immune" isn't a valid argument because if you do that you just nerf your own AB for them.

I say we remove expertise from bards and just let those with it relevel.

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:33 pm

Oh and how exactly should a Bard stand a chance against a Barbarian or Paladin eh? They are d6 you've taken their conceal making them TS fodder you've taken towqer and large shields away from them, they have the half hp that al melee chars have. And IN my opinion they SHOULD be able to kill something not getting sloughtered by 3 hits from a barbarian wchich is the case when they don't have the expertise, you haven't made a bard since the nerfs have you? Thought so. Mages vs Bards is a good fight? In wchich freaking world? Evasion is removed from the items, they can shield against max 20 elemental dmg if they want to maintain high saves from the gear, and they die within 2 maxed chain Lightenings, 2maxed BladeBariers, 3-4 empowered IceStorms etc... Because you guys removed conceal from the bards they can't fight ranged sneakers efficently anymore since they get flatfooded all the time and their low hp doesn't last long vs 30 dmg a pop. Expertise is The ONLY way for a bard to do fine against at least this type of build he is ment to fight so melees, And the AC is high but not to high, My Bard has 1 PM and 1 RDD lvland ekspertise when he was fighting doomer, cursed him even the Barbarian still hitted and critted a lot. And while we on too high ac what about your PM/RDD? Does it get hit once per round by a maxed ab good melee class? I seriously doubt. Going on..... what about charisma Paladins? I mean mine is going to have 54 ac and 53 ab in smites thats far more power then a bard could ever bring up, i did the math before somewhere, I remind you once AGAIN Bards need better ac, they simply don't have the HP to tank 40+ab at lvl 20 with 48 ac, or 34+ab at lvl 14 with 42 ac. Oh and I've almost forgotten the awesome clerics what about them? My Cleric is war/trickery and I can telll just now that he will have over 51 ac(Max ac a pure bard str based and with the cash to buy +5hardies and +5 cloak could get)and 50% conceal, with Plant Domain the ac was even higher. And what about divine power Rdd's?60+ac. PM's? Ac close to 60 if not better. As for your Ranger, you bring in a dual wield(ab decrese) 2 hander against a melee tank and expect wonders, oh please acording to what I've read and was the philosophy of the serwer, there should be paper-scizors balance,Bards loose to ranged csers and casters, more even there are more then a few builds that can put up a great fight against a bard or simply crush them into dust... they SHould have the power to beat melee chars at least.I'm really getting sick of it only a few Players play Bards nowadays (me,a(% and um Shauna got stuck in the lvl 12 i think) and athors instead of using all the dispell rods uber abd Mordakein Powers, curse immunity just whine about hove they hate bards and how they are overpowered. If you wanna continue this serwer as disable War instead of eternal war then do so but without me.

LittleLostThief · Post by **LittleLostThief** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:41 pm

I think the point here is that any class should have the potential to kill another class. There is paper rock scissors and all, but sometimes, occasionally, a clever melee should be able to beat a bard. At least once! I know I'm not great or anything, but my melees usually can't take bards even when I'm using an attack booster.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:48 pm

Alright, I read half of that and went nearly blind. Please turn your rant into a rant with paragraphs. It's fine to have long posts but please for the love of god give them some sort of structure. Also use periods, as this "half" of this is a single sentence. (Oh and I find it laughable that you're using a threat of "nerf bards more and I'll leave!" If that threat ever worked we wouldn't have nerfed a thing ever)

Now I'll try and answer a few of those points there are seperate ones in there I do believe.

Barb./Paladin? Well lets look over a few of the options. A Barb with full bab reaches 45 ab correct? That's of course at level 20 with rather large volumes of cash. However for the sake of your argument we'll use it. A bard reaches "about" 50 ac before expertise and curse song. So now we have course song being tossed in. That's just like giving yourself 52 ac + expertise. Now you add on 25% conceal making a quater of those hits miss. Furthermore you have wounding whispers doing up to 25 damage a pop in sonic damage. Lets also not forget your aura.

Now you say at some point in that mess that there are all these immunities. Yes I agree there are however lets see what said immunities take away. Helmet (very class restricted) means -2 to one of your stats. Lower damage or ac and lower ab. Also about 5x the price. That's best case and only a few classes can use it. Now to the more applicable amulet. Using that ammy means you lose haste. To gain back haste (something everyone but sneakers considers very important) you must lose your belt. That means you lose AB/AC/Saves all in one blow. However lets pretend you think you're clever and can switch the ammy out and just wear sonic boots to cover the whispers damage. That means you probably lost CON. ie: HP. This could go on but I'm sure you see how it works.

Now you mention mages. Well bards come with dispels (useful for lower levels) silence (useful if you can trick a mage into running) immunity to 3rd level spells and below (useful for a few odd spells) high damage output if you're strength based and finally spell failure (your curse song gives this as well as your taunt which you can -easily- land on anyone with the +8-10 to skills you gain). PS: Also forgot that Spellcraft is a bard skill and with the huge + to skills you could easily gain +6 to your saves..but most likely +7
Max Lightning - 120 damage | Make the save - 60 damage. 20 from amulet - 40 damage | If you die from 80 damage then you've got a very very low hp bard.
Max BB's - 120 damage | Make the save - 60 damage. Ethreal Visage (a spell you have) - 40 damage | Same thing as above
IceStorms - I want to say 60 damage | 20 Amulet - 40 damage. Ethreal Visage - about 20 damage | If you can't live through that you're in some major trouble.

Then you mentioned ranged sneakers. Bards gain listen as a class skill and +20 from amplify. With any gear at all you can spot any ranged corner sneaker. If the sneaker is using haste you'll probably hear him instantly. If not you can easily run him down as they can't wear KD immunity. You'll get hit, no question but you'll probably win 2:1. (Lets not even forget the fact that if they try and stay far away you can -easily- make yourself immune to all there damage and please don't site work arounds for this, I know there are but in general please)

Then you cite Charisma Paladins. Trying to convince me or anyone else that bards aren't overpowered by using how powerful an overpowered class is isn't a winning strategy. Infact, if you CAN beat those classes chances are you're to powerful. If you wish to make a thread about how charisma paladins are to strong then PLEASE make one. I haven't seen any really really dominating cha. pallies yet but perhaps you know better.

Then you try and suggest the dispel rods and mords rods. Well dispel rods are good. However a pure bard with 20 levels is only going to fail a buff 25% of the time making you need at least 2-3 to get most of the buffs...most of which can simply be reapplied. Then you say "omg Mords rods!" Mords rods have a breach effect, only your ethreal visage suffers here. They then have a 50% chance of getting each buff. That is good but lets take a step back. Mords rods cost how much money? 80 000 dollars. Now what person in there right mind spends 80 000 dollars to gain a 50% chance at dispelling?

Now we get to my favorite part of your little rant. The personal attack on me

First you smack talk my RDD. My PM/RDD has about 48 ac once dispelled (a normal dispel will get nearly everything) AND my RDD has 33 ab. A bard has higher in both and many more spells which are better. Infact I believe it was you I was fighting with my RDD. I do recall you keeping both me and another player at bay while your team killed the other guy. Yes I could kill you but I was also using truestrike and you were fighting the other guy mostly. So interestingly enough your (at least I think it's yours) bard beats my RDD. So this idea of citing a powerful character as reasoning is flawed as a pure bard is stronger.

Then we move onto my example with my ranger. Obviously you think me a child as if I wouldn't consider my own flaws in the character choice before bringing it. I don't recall saying I thought I should win and I don't recall saying I expected any wonder of any sort. All I said is that I expected to be able to hit an unbuffed bard perhaps twice a round with some reliability. Please notice the word "unbuffed." Yes I didn't have the max ab any ranger could get but even with -2 for the two weapons I still couldn't land more then 1 hit a round against the bard.

You also ask if I've created a bard. No I haven't created one from scratch. However my bard was level 14-15 when the nerfs were put in (all of the nerfs hence the 1 level spread). I leveled it to level 18 before it got deleted. I never lost to anything but cha. pallies more then 1:1 (and even they were about that) and that includes wizards. Clerics were infact the hardest opponent I fought. It was the BB's which always got me....now those have been given a working save and I highly doubt I'd have had to much trouble with them now. Also my bard didn't even have ethreal visage to lessen the damage on icestorms/BB's and I could still fight well.

What seems to me here Rafael is that you saw what you wanted to see in my thread and seeing that red which you did you began your rant. You've misunderstood at least 3 spells or perhaps you just don't know they've been weakened. Half of your examples are half truths simply because you've assumed best senario for the person against the bard (such as having them not retreat from TS). Please take some time before writing your next post and please please please please please use more then one paragraph.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:30 pm

I already suggested taking expertise away from bards and giving their tower shields back, but I dont' think it's fair to keep on nerfing, keep on nerfing while we give other classes boosts. Especially pure classes.

No expertise for bards, I'm for, but can't we give them their 2 AC and 45% arcane spell failure back?

A95 · Post by **A95** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:46 pm

We should make pure bards stronger than multiclass ones, you don't see many pure bards.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:19 am

Seems like the verdict is always " Whatever can beat a paladin in a 1 on 1 is too strong. Let's nerf them and keep paladins the same, who can still dominate every class easily. "

Paladins are good vs. mages but weak vs. sneaks.

Bards are horrible vs. mages but good vs. sneaks.

Both classes are very powerful against other melee builds if focused upon with gear.

However, both classes are vulnerable to dispel and rely on damage boosts. DR helps.

Paladins can get more AC than bards, but bards have 25% conceal. I rather roll against conceal than have a 5% chance of hitting period.

I'm not too sure what the fuss is. I've played many many bards. Dex and Strength. The only solution to all the bard nerfs is.. to keep making the same build of bards. No one makes dex bards anymore because they are just useless for killing and easy to kill or many things compared to strength/still spell bards. We all know this to be fact. However, I do agree that bards do not need expertise, but a lot of classes do not need expertise, for bards don't reach the highest AC on the server-- especially pure bards.

Strong class indeed, but Great doesn't really use his bard vs. every class. Notice how much he character swaps when he dies. <.<; Strong vs. Melee, but not invincible.

Gnarr, wouldn't your strength ranger die just as easily to a fully buffed bard, to a fully buffed wizard with atleast 33 AC, 50% conceal, acid sheath and DR? That's a typical level 18 mage. A clever dex rogue with a shortbow? Not counting pride item seekers?

I understand that your point is that your extremely high AB couldn't hit him, but so what? Back off and use the prayer necklace for lesser restoration. I see a bigger problem would be his hold monster or cure critical wounds after you CS'ing, rather than his 50 AC from your 40+ AB.

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:12 am

Gnarr Gnarr Gnarr.....

Barb./Paladin? Well lets look over a few of the options. A Barb with full bab reaches 45 ab correct? That's of course at level 20 with rather large volumes of cash. However for the sake of your argument we'll use it. A bard reaches "about" 50 ac before expertise and curse song. So now we have course song being tossed in. That's just like giving yourself 52 ac + expertise. Now you add on 25% conceal making a quater of those hits miss. Furthermore you have wounding whispers doing up to 25 damage a pop in sonic damage. Lets also not forget your aura.

First off all a pure str bard can have 48 ac with 190k of gold thats a fact. Now 45 ab(or lets make it 42 even

) means you miss on a roll crapier then 3 for 45 or 6 for 42 ab.Now asuming that you have the best curse possible(50 perform and lvl 20 bard i believe thats -4to ab) you get missed by lets se.. a roll crapier then 7 for 45 ab or a roll crapier then 10 for 42 ab(I'm not counting in smites or true strike wchich wan't miss otherwise then with a 1.).
Now My favourit
e part the faked conceal

I don't know if you just wan't to mention or don't know what blind fight does?EVERYONE semi decent builder ALWAYS takes that feat for a stealth or melee char.Blind fight allows to reroll against a concealed target in practise halfing the conceal so it's more like 12,5% attacks miss,In fighting not even that.

Now you say at some point in that mess that there are all these immunities. Yes I agree there are however lets see what said immunities take away. Helmet (very class restricted) means -2 to one of your stats. Lower damage or ac and lower ab. Also about 5x the price. That's best case and only a few classes can use it. Now to the more applicable amulet. Using that ammy means you lose haste. To gain back haste (something everyone but sneakers considers very important) you must lose your belt. That means you lose AB/AC/Saves all in one blow. However lets pretend you think you're clever and can switch the ammy out and just wear sonic boots to cover the whispers damage. That means you probably lost CON. ie: HP. This could go on but I'm sure you see how it works.

Sigh there are Full Plates with same resists as the boots and not taking away the boot slot for harides. Switching the immunity amulet and Haste Amulet works fine, you've proven it when you fought my bard.Also Fighters for example have Haste on Different items.

Now you mention mages. Well bards come with dispels (useful for lower levels) silence (useful if you can trick a mage into running) immunity to 3rd level spells and below (useful for a few odd spells) high damage output if you're strength based and finally spell failure (your curse song gives this as well as your taunt which you can -easily- land on anyone with the +8-10 to skills you gain). PS: Also forgot that Spellcraft is a bard skill and with the huge + to skills you could easily gain +6 to your saves..but most likely +7
Max Lightning - 120 damage | Make the save - 60 damage. 20 from amulet - 40 damage | If you die from 80 damage then you've got a very very low hp bard.
Max BB's - 120 damage | Make the save - 60 damage. Ethreal Visage (a spell you have) - 40 damage | Same thing as above
IceStorms - I want to say 60 damage | 20 Amulet - 40 damage. Ethreal Visage - about 20 damage | If you can't live through that you're in some major trouble.

Ah well now lets see :)To be able to take Spellcraft as a class skill and have all the NEEDED skills(perform,taunt,discipline,concentration,listen,tumble)you'd have to go 14 int with human, or 16 int with any other race, Well that makes automaticaly the only choice a human bard because the other races would either have 8 con,not enough charisma, not enough or simply crappier strength and ab. If I want a still spell Ethernal Visage Cast I need 16 charisma as well, the str also better be high if i want to hit something, the dex hmm yeah rising it to 10 and then using grace could work,and how much remains for the constituion?I tell you how much you can have entire 12 con then.I don't need to explein how poorly the hp looks then compared to other melee chars do I?Now for the gearing up against a mage you see gnarr, all Save bonus items are more or less a sacryfice of ac slots,a sacryfice of boots(hp/ac) slot if you want to fight a dmg shield then also you need to wear the cursed belt another str and ac sacryfice. and with all that gear you need to wear, sacryficing many constitution bonus points you normally wear, how do you think how high the hp will be?. Now lets see about the spells you could use to counter the mage... ah right Silence. You see mages do 2 have ethernal Visage(And it protects only agains 2lvl or lower lvl spells not 3.)They Have Mantles and they have gust of wind, and lets nott forget about Mordakein wchich works fine as well.The Mage will dispell the silence long before the bard reaches the mage.Ethernal Visage as a protection vs IceStorm or BB dmg?Maybe it would work, if there wasn't the small fact of dispell spells, Mordakein will more then likely take it awai, greater dispell has less chnces but with luck it will do 2.Now a Pure Bard could cast it 4-5 times if he had stillspell however, if he stops and starts recasting it he gives the mage another opportunity to dmg him again. And Bard hp really doesn't last long.

Then you mentioned ranged sneakers. Bards gain listen as a class skill and +20 from amplify. With any gear at all you can spot any ranged corner sneaker. If the sneaker is using haste you'll probably hear him instantly. If not you can easily run him down as they can't wear KD immunity. You'll get hit, no question but you'll probably win 2:1. (Lets not even forget the fact that if they try and stay far away you can -easily- make yourself immune to all there damage and please don't site work arounds for this, I know there are but in general please

You know very well that Listen isn't spot, then enemy flatfoods you no matter if you hear him.Now because the bards lost conceal they wan't get missed(only rarely). If you have to use detect mode with listen you will never catch a cs, never. An elfcan chase them but a good ranged cs still will be quic enough to gun the elf down. Also chasing a ranged cs isn't easy since they normally attack you not from 5 foot distance but from enough distance to keep them safe.Buy throwing axes or darts you would say.. welll the sneak can buy a dr belt and maybe some regen(Casas did that) and you wan't do enough dmg to kill him faster then he kills you.

Then you cite Charisma Paladins. Trying to convince me or anyone else that bards aren't overpowered by using how powerful an overpowered class is isn't a winning strategy. Infact, if you CAN beat those classes chances are you're to powerful. If you wish to make a thread about how charisma paladins are to strong then PLEASE make one. I haven't seen any really really dominating cha. pallies yet but perhaps you know better.

Let's put it the other way. If a class can kill a bard (so a very overpowered class in your opinion) within 4 rounds isn't it a bit um overpowered?

Then you try and suggest the dispel rods and mords rods. Well dispel rods are good. However a pure bard with 20 levels is only going to fail a buff 25% of the time making you need at least 2-3 to get most of the buffs...most of which can simply be reapplied. Then you say "omg Mords rods!" Mords rods have a breach effect, only your ethreal visage suffers here. They then have a 50% chance of getting each buff. That is good but lets take a step back. Mords rods cost how much money? 80 000 dollars. Now what person in there right mind spends 80 000 dollars to gain a 50% chance at dispelling?

Mordakeins power is 1k prides, also the dispell chance is for every single buff, wchich means usually 1or 2 always get dispelled.

Now we get to my favorite part of your little rant. The personal attack on me Very Happy First you smack talk my RDD. My PM/RDD has about 48 ac once dispelled (a normal dispel will get nearly everything) AND my RDD has 33 ab. A bard has higher in both and many more spells which are better. Infact I believe it was you I was fighting with my RDD. I do recall you keeping both me and another player at bay while your team killed the other guy. Yes I could kill you but I was also using truestrike and you were fighting the other guy mostly. So interestingly enough your (at least I think it's yours) bard beats my RDD. So this idea of citing a powerful character as reasoning is flawed as a pure bard is stronger.

For the last time my bard isn't pure. My Bard has apM and rdd lvl it is 3 ac OVER a normal Bard.AlsoI recall Having great trouble in thta fights.OH and just yesterday I fough a 38 ab char wchich was crtitting and hitting my bard in expertise pretty often.

Then we move onto my example with my ranger. Obviously you think me a child as if I wouldn't consider my own flaws in the character choice before bringing it. I don't recall saying I thought I should win and I don't recall saying I expected any wonder of any sort. All I said is that I expected to be able to hit an unbuffed bard perhaps twice a round with some reliability. Please notice the word "unbuffed." Yes I didn't have the max ab any ranger could get but even with -2 for the two weapons I still couldn't land more then 1 hit a round against the bard.

I know the hp argument gets old but... If you hit a bard too often it wan't be a good fight it will be a masacre.. a high dmg crit(100+) 2-4 hits and a bard goes down (assuming he had over 200 hp wchich not always is the case especially at lower lvls), Bards have the half of HP then other melee opponets they simply CAN'T get hit as much as they hit because otherwise they get stomped into the ground.

You also ask if I've created a bard. No I haven't created one from scratch. However my bard was level 14-15 when the nerfs were put in (all of the nerfs hence the 1 level spread). I leveled it to level 18 before it got deleted. I never lost to anything but cha. pallies more then 1:1 (and even they were about that) and that includes wizards. Clerics were infact the hardest opponent I fought. It was the BB's which always got me....now those have been given a working save and I highly doubt I'd have had to much trouble with them now. Also my bard didn't even have ethreal visage to lessen the damage on icestorms/BB's and I could still fight well.

starting a bard from lvl14-15 where you have decent ab and ac isn't a problem and it isn't the same as starting a bard from lvl 7. So the answer to my question if you made a new bard after the nerfs is a clear "no".

What seems to me here Rafael is that you saw what you wanted to see in my thread and seeing that red which you did you began your rant. You've misunderstood at least 3 spells or perhaps you just don't know they've been weakened. Half of your examples are half truths simply because you've assumed best senario for the person against the bard (such as having them not retreat from TS). Please take some time before writing your next post and please please please please please use more then one paragraph.

Retreat from TS is not always possible buddy

Halftruths? I see more halftruths in those numbers you present to me. You either wan't to play NWN or disable it's your choice

Alright, I read half of that and went nearly blind. Please turn your rant into a rant with paragraphs. It's fine to have long posts but please for the love of god give them some sort of structure. Also use periods, as this "half" of this is a single sentence. (Oh and I find it laughable that you're using a threat of "nerf bards more and I'll leave!" If that threat ever worked we wouldn't have nerfed a thing ever)

You see, I didn't threaten to leave if you nerf Bards more.I will leave if the serwer wan't be fun anymore for me. And it wasn't a threat I know that noone cares if I play here or not, however i would think over the direction i wchich the serwer goes(Items and nerfs over the build over the classes, over NWN.)

Musekaze · Post by **Musekaze** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:01 pm

im just going to nod my head and pretend to understand everything you guys are saying.

but heck, ive faught about every bard on the server, and they can be a pain in the arse. Heck Sera's bards (except hermit and Agatha mainly) are easier to fight then Great Guard, which is sera's build. but its ridiculous that they can get THAT much AC and have that conceal. you have to roll a 20 to hit them. now lets do teh math.

at lvl 20 Shanks will have about 33 AB, which is pretty good for a melee sneaker. Say im fighting a bard with 45 AC, which is kinda low for a bard anyways. That means i'd have to roll a 12 on my attack just to hit him, and even then i only have a 25% chance of missing him. even with blind fight, thats still a 12.5% chance of missing. Now that level 20 bard can probably get around 50+ listen: +10 helm, +10 ammy, +10 amplify, +20 base.

Now, with the changes to hide/ms within the past few months, at most, Shanks can only get around 50 hide and 50 MS. 55 without haste. that means that bard will annihilate him no matter what, even when being caught flat footed. Go ranged?

Archer at lv 20 will probably have around 33 AB as well, thats still decent AB, and still needing to roll a 12 to hit the bard. but because hes ranged, he has even LOWER hide/ms than shanks because of the bow. so he'll still be heard. Stay away? no sneak attacks, keep running, the bard will pull out some darts and eat you, because he can spot you no matter what.

now in reality, bards currently will get maybe 50, maybe 55 AC. even a 45 AB barb or w/e needs to roll a 10 to hit that, and has a 25% chance of missing. a 33 AB sneaker? needs a 20 to hit him period, which unless your lucky wont happen often. Curse song brings your AB lower, even by 2 or 3 pts, will make the battle instantly one sided. and if a sneaker brings your Hide/ms down.

you can't KD a bard. why? Most bards are smart enough to grab a butload of Disc points, and if not fighting a sneak some 2k greater disc rings. that gives them the same disc as a barb. and that means you still have to HIT them to KD them, and hope to god they roll a 1 on the KD check. what if they dont take Disc? bards get KD ammy! wtf ya know now you're hopeless.

taunt the bards to get rid of some AC? msot bards also take Concentration so they can cast in battle, just in case your Gdispell works somehow. now you really are hopeless stuck fighting a 55 AC bard with some crummy 35 or 40 AB.

Paladins? 53 Ab smites, which is good, and thats CHA pallys. and thats ONLY smites you blow your 1 or 3 smites and now your stuck not hitting them again. holy sword is nice, but thats still only a greater dispell. and a pure bard will just throw it off.

mages own bards? you guys already covered that?

bottom line, even WITH bard nerfs, they are still pretty damn powerful against any class.

and ya wonder why i always log off when Great hops on? no point in fighting a war you cannot win. even his DRUID that has maybe 1 rogue can claimingly get 70 spot, which is ridiculous and leaves no room for hiding or sneak attacks, so bards aren't the only problem.

any class that can not defaultly get Spot/listen needs a cap if they multiclass with only a few levels of the Spot/listen class, unless however they are 75% of the Spot/listen class. even 50% spot/listen class wouldnt be enough to prevent monsters from dominating EW.

A95 · Post by **A95** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:10 pm

There is no reason to cap how much spot a multiclass build can get. Stop bashing my builds because I thought a little bit before making it.

Musekaze · Post by **Musekaze** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:23 pm

im not bashing them, im stating how they are completely overpowered. now if your going to post post something that contributes the the thread, here its actually important

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:50 pm

Muse a but load of ac gets ignored with a sneak attack -.-, boots get ignored,song ac gets ignored,tumble gets ignored,dex gets ignored and prolly haste 2. That strips 20ish ac from the bard with a sneak attack in fact for your example with a sneakattack you'd have tohit 25ish ac with 33 ab. Now move one 55 ac is not the average ac a bard can get >.< It's 48 at lvl 17 util you get bazilions of cash and can buy +5 hardies and the ac cloaks+4 and +5 where it becomes 51. A Brabarian or a Paladin Aren't going to miss that unless with really unlucky rolls. Only 3 smites? Jeez buddy a Paladin can do 300 dmg with 3 crits with a dagger with that... As for the multiclass for spot every damn mage does so, my Rainbow Arcane Can get 78 spot so what of it?. But Hey you have the awesome knowlege of how bards are made and played on this serwer, you died even more times then I to a 34 ab barbarian while having slightly over 40 ac and dying within 3-6 rounds right? Sigh...

LittleLostThief · Post by **LittleLostThief** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:56 pm

Well as was stated earlier... all of 95's builds have some decent flaw. I've easily beat any of them at any time with certain other classes... the problem is that he will NEVER stick around if he's going to die.

Musekaze · Post by **Musekaze** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:03 pm

yeah thats why his death record is "so good" he leaves whenever someone comes around that can beat him and gets "bored"

LittleLostThief · Post by **LittleLostThief** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:19 pm

That seems to happen to me a lot. It takes me a while to find good gear against people sometimes, and the moment that they stop crushing me into the ground and I do good for myself, they "get bored". I hate you bored people.