Cleric BAB

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Thu May 10, 2007 10:39 pm

I'm voting for Cleric BAB to be returned to normal. Melee clerics rely completely on buffs and there... is a mords rod now. Casas said if Cleric BAB was returned to normal a melee cleric can get 46 AB. I don't agree with this, considering a pure paladin with smite can get up to 50.

Let's try to add things up maximized.

Half Orc- 20 strength, 19 wisdom.

15 BAB
11 Mod
+5 Dagger
5 Divine
2 Battle Tide
1 Bless
1 Aid
1 Prayer

41 AB if it was returned to normal, fully buffed, pretending a half orc cleric had 20 strength base.

The reason it was intially nerfed is because Divine Power was un nerfed. It granted clerics up to and over 50 AB. Now that all that it does is raise strength to 18 and nothing else, it is useless ( unless your a dexer with 10 strength. ) There is no reason clerical AB should not be restored to normal.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Fri May 11, 2007 6:26 am

I don't see why we'd want to give clerics back that kind of power. Clerics already are powerful casters (they have the most number of spells with damage you cannot resist) and even make decent meleer's even with the nerf. Just subtract 5 from that score (36) and you've got there ab now. My RDD has the same ab as that and does fine.

Clerics are an extremely powerful class and personally I think forcing them into one primary role isn't a bad thing. We really don't need clerics who can melee well AND cast well at the same time.

Post by **Rary** » Fri May 11, 2007 7:28 am

Clerics get 41 AB, I think 43 AB anyways because I think you can get +13 mod for strength. But anyways, 41 AB for a cleric that can get spells and AC like a barbarian which only gets 40 AB. You'll kill the barbarian class if you do this.

Even if the cleric wasn't buff'd, the 31 AB with AC and spells is still powerful. No melee class can stand a chance to buy up good dispel rods and AC and AB just to compete.

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » Fri May 11, 2007 8:58 am

I agree with Shauna,the bab would be restored because we barely see melee clerics now, only caster clerics in sight exept a few. Nerfing the bab was the main reason why Bards became the strongest melee class while unnerfed, normally they go toe by toe with each other and the cleric sometimes has better chances to defeat the bard since he can restore curse and taunt, and 43 ab wouldn't be bad considering that charisma Paladins can reach equal ab and 50+ ac. And perhaps they could beat up barbarians but there are other melees that could handle them, barbarians have a pretty good live on the serwer anyways.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Fri May 11, 2007 9:18 am

It could be 48 actually. War Domain gives +5 AB. If you want to restore Cleric BAB, then you have to take something else from them.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Fri May 11, 2007 10:31 am

You couldn't max out strength for a cleric and still reach level 9 spells.

Not everyone picks war domain. Clerics will have like... 25 AB unbuffed..

Damage not resisted? Ice storm? Sun beam? What?

To be a decent clerical caster, you have to focus on feats for AC AND spell focus. If you want to be a melee cleric, you will probably not have any spell focus and definately not any spell pen.

I've made almost every clerical combination possible on this server, some before and some after the nerf. After divine power was nerfed, everyone stopped making melee clerics, pretty much, because they weren't uber. After the BAB nerf, people just.. didn't play those characters for three months. ( Drunkens Cleric.. Rune Knight. )

I say we try it. How hard can it be to reactivate the script if things go haywire?

Post by **Rary** » Fri May 11, 2007 1:41 pm

BAB as is now has always been like that, you know that?

To me, it just doesn't seem right that a cleric can get a higher AB than fighters and barbarians and those 2 classes are suppose to hit people nicely.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Fri May 11, 2007 4:48 pm

Damage which can't be resisted: Icestorm, Sunbeam, HotG's, BB's (saving still does half damage even with evasion), that one that does a straight beam of holy damage, it's a level 3 spell I forget the name though. Along with the damage shield they gain, holy aura I believe it's called.

Just because we don't see melee clerics anymore doesn't mean that we should. Clerics could beat -anything- when they weren't nerf'd and melee almost all classes better then they could fight them. Bards never stood a chance against clerics, even if they could hit them one BB doing 120 damage and then a damage sheild doing a crapload of damage everytime they're hit along with healing meant that a bard could simply hit the cleric to his death. Hell they can still do that, the cleric just can't hit him anymore.

Also "not every cleric takes War Domain" isn't an argument to put BAB back up. Smart melee clerics will use War as it's an extremely powerful buff for melee. I could make a Sorc with 11 charisma and 18 int that doesn't mean that sorc's aren't overpowered in general.

Also they currently can reach 36-38 (if you "only" want level 8 spells use 38) ab and +5 from war domain giving them 41-43 ab -right now-. That's higher ab then most melee builds. Clerics are fine people. You can still build them for melee and cast well currently it just requires some knowledge about how to build a strong one instead of simply hitting the recommended button.

-Final point, that cleric you described RedMage without the BAB nerf (with War domain added) melees better then every high BAB build and casts with only 2 less DC then a pure caster cleric. How that isn't overpowering I don't know. 45 ab buffed and a 33 DC implosion without focuses to me -screams- overpowered, which is why they were nerfed in the first place.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:56 pm

I would like cleric BAB restored, mainly so they can get more APR.. but they have to lose that AB somewhere else.

We could just pull War Domain and have it give no AB - that would put clerics at 43 AB (fully buffed and half orc) till the end of one of their favors + tide + prayer.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Sat May 12, 2007 1:01 am

You can't get 45 AB and 33 DC implosion. I'm telling you guys, you can't have high wisdom AND ab. Decent wisdom and AB.. maybe 41 with war domain, maxed out and 33 implosion. Otherwise, it doesn't work. Plus clerics rely on buffs. You know how many dispell things there are now? Dispell rods, mord rods, holy sword works well now, GODly dispel traps. A buffless cleric = fish in a barrel.

Rary, the cleric BAB hasn't always been like it is now. It came with the divine power nerf.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Sat May 12, 2007 6:36 am

I was using your stats Red. You said 41 ab I added some more using War Domain, 19 wisdom with no feats and a max'd wisdom mod gives you 33 DC on implosion. That's what would happen with Cleric BAB back to 2/3's and it's why I don't ever want cleric BAB back to that.

I don't see why we NEED melee clerics again anyway. They were always overpowered and we finally found a way to force the cleric into one role rather then be a jack-of-all-trades unfortunately lacking the second half of that saying "Master of none." Personally I think lowering Cleric BAB was one of the best balances I've seen this server do as no other server I know has been able to weaken clerics as well as this one has while keeping them quite powerful as to not make them completely unplayed.

-Also the only real damage to melee clerics overall is the APR. 41 ab is on par with pure melee's and there damage/ac is better. Dispelling a cleric with a mords rod is powerful but clerics can easily keep multiple buffs while having more then one 70k mords rod isn't exactly within the budget of most people. (Not to mention the fact that people who multiclass or aren't within the small group of people who can use that rod are still completely screwed, not to mention that a mords is still only a 50% shot at level 20, not a sure thing as you make it sound.)

Clerics make -amazing- buffers as a multi., so much so that taking a few levels used to not matter as you gained equal or better AB back then you'd lose to there 2/3's bab. Now using the cleric as a buffer multi-class often costs more ab then you gain, which I don't see as a bad thing as clerics still have decent spells outside of buffing ones at lower levels.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Sat May 12, 2007 10:15 am

Hello? People? Let's just remove War Domains AB bonus.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Sat May 12, 2007 12:49 pm

But why? 41 ab is still amazing for a perfectly good caster class >.< That's what barbarians reach but you know, with less AC and less damage. Clerics are fine. If we do this we'll just see dozens of clerics again who can out melee barbs/rangers/fighters/bards who can only melee in the first place. Clerics should be casters who can heal, not warriors who can cast, heal and fight.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Sat May 12, 2007 2:55 pm

Barbarians reach a high AB, but much longer.. cleric AB is mostly surge and dispellable. It's the APR that's a problem. Melee clerics only get 2 apr.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Sat May 12, 2007 3:16 pm

So? That makes them need to multiclass. I hardly see that as a major problem after all if Fighter/WM/Wizards work I don't see why clerics can't be used in the same manner. I have (had) 2 chars with cleric levels and 4+ attacks per round. Cleric added about 2 ab overall and something like 6 damage on an average hit. Also gave one char about 4 30+ hp heals.

Pure melee clerics aren't good anymore but I don't think that means we should up there BAB again. I'd be more for upping Wizarb BAB before upping clerics again.