And yet Casas more people seem to agree with me then with you. Perhaps it's because it hurts your mage or because you didn't think of it that you resent this idea so much but PM/RDD"s don't dominate this server and we can nerf those later if they become popular or infact due to this nerf -my- PM/RDD is going to be nerfed taking a -5 ac hit from being unable to use those boots anymore.
However changing the focus onto another class isn't what this topic is about at all shows that you're just trying to swing this debate about a new topic. So instead of trying to bring up new classes to nerf (make a post about them and we all can comment just as well as we do here) how about we focus on a class which we all know as extremely strong, the mages.
If you're so certain Casas that you know balance better then everyone else who plays on this server then I suggest you write up a report with -all- your desired changes so us ignorant folk can finally understand what true balance is about. However, until you do that I suggest you get your head out of the clouds because you're not quite so all knowing as you think you are and simply because you have spent the better portion of your life with DnD doesn't mean that the rest of us lack the sense to see flaws in nwn's design.
And no balance isn't just about level 20's. The entire server needs balance from 7 to 20 and 'it's just easier for some classes' isn't a good enough reason to leave it unbalanced at these lower levels. Oh and I said that I went 1:1 with drunken while wearing every immunity item I could afford which also left me unable to melee someone 4 levels lower then me using a build who I could normally kill without a second thought. So no, that's not balance. A melee sneak shouldn't be required to be 100% vulnerable to every other class to be able to beat 1 other. That's not balance, nor will it ever be.
Now if you could stop insulting myself and the rest of the people who didn't vote with you that would be wonderful. I'm for one pretty tired of your self-rightous attitude as I'm sure more then a few of us are. Just because you're one of the best players here doesn't make your opinion worth anything more then anyone elses. So why don't you step down off your high horse because as of currently your opinion on this matter is being out voted, no matter how much you dislike it.
Reducing Mage Power
I believe now that I've said everything I need to say here and that this argument is now becoming solely about Casas and myself and I'm sure it has no place in this forum. So I'll allow my arguments to stand as they are and let others read those.
Casas you can PM me if you wish to continue this semi-argument of ours but I won't be continuing it on the open forums incase it should devolve into nothing more then a flame war which it is moving very close to becoming.
Casas you can PM me if you wish to continue this semi-argument of ours but I won't be continuing it on the open forums incase it should devolve into nothing more then a flame war which it is moving very close to becoming.
I already do. Most of my recommendations have been implemented, but when unbalance is suggested, I will go against it. Taking AC away from AC-less class, is foolish. You're only punishing the mages that don't take expertise, instead of dealing with the real problem.
I don't care what the people agree with, most of these people don't even have mages. I made a mage yesterday on test, 33 AC with 20 tumble. 200k all spent on AC. That's real overpowering.
I don't care what the people agree with, most of these people don't even have mages. I made a mage yesterday on test, 33 AC with 20 tumble. 200k all spent on AC. That's real overpowering.
For such a lonely soul, you're having such a nice time.
My mage with no expertise, no tumble using the +5 armor and +3 boots and doesn't have mage armor has 39 ac. That's +2 with tumble (pure class still) +2 more from those boots, +1 if I could have mage armor and +1-2 more if I had dex items on. That's 45-46 ac before expertise. With expertise I reach 50 ac.
So 40 ac for a mage that's just over 20 in cash (I have about 8-10k more then a mage that -just- got 20) and 45 if I had expertise. So yes, I would say that's overpowering. Unfortunately you're not the only one who can test things quickly and this little scolding I was giving you was not because you don't think others are right, it's because you insulted the entire playerbase including Rary.
So 40 ac for a mage that's just over 20 in cash (I have about 8-10k more then a mage that -just- got 20) and 45 if I had expertise. So yes, I would say that's overpowering. Unfortunately you're not the only one who can test things quickly and this little scolding I was giving you was not because you don't think others are right, it's because you insulted the entire playerbase including Rary.
Base 10 + 5 Armor (90k) + 4 Haste + 4 Tumble + 1 Mage armor + 4 shadow (buffed, dispellable) +5 DEX (buffed, partially dispellable) + 4 shield (dispellable) = 37 there, with up to 11 dispellable. You were a gnome? Gotta be one of the worst mage classes.. illusion is terrible, nonetheless 1 more AC against larger foes.
My WM has 40 AC w/o a shield.. and he cranks out way more dmg.
Problem is with expertise mages, not normal ones.
That's if they aren't pure. And I did suggest removing the +5 expensive armor.
Now if you went and decked your mage out in AC amulet and casted haste, and bought the +5 fort robe (what's that another 120k?) That's already their entire budget spent on AC, no INT.. no DC, no spells. There is a +5 AC deflect staff.. but it's 80k itself too? Should be removed.
The mage I made, with the 34 AC was effective in combat. He wasn't wearing +5 armor, mainly because it's too expensive. I budgeted him at 190k (20 DEX, maximized cats). So with hardies he could have 39 AC.. Assuming I had another 110k to spend on them. Common AB of 37 would miss on a 1/6/11/16/1. Pallies.. 1/1/5/10/1
Doesn't seem bad. Throw expertise in, and it becomes a problem. Simple solution, I've been preaching the whole time.. take expertise from all casters. Near every server does.
My WM has 40 AC w/o a shield.. and he cranks out way more dmg.
Problem is with expertise mages, not normal ones.
That's if they aren't pure. And I did suggest removing the +5 expensive armor.
Now if you went and decked your mage out in AC amulet and casted haste, and bought the +5 fort robe (what's that another 120k?) That's already their entire budget spent on AC, no INT.. no DC, no spells. There is a +5 AC deflect staff.. but it's 80k itself too? Should be removed.
The mage I made, with the 34 AC was effective in combat. He wasn't wearing +5 armor, mainly because it's too expensive. I budgeted him at 190k (20 DEX, maximized cats). So with hardies he could have 39 AC.. Assuming I had another 110k to spend on them. Common AB of 37 would miss on a 1/6/11/16/1. Pallies.. 1/1/5/10/1
Doesn't seem bad. Throw expertise in, and it becomes a problem. Simple solution, I've been preaching the whole time.. take expertise from all casters. Near every server does.
For such a lonely soul, you're having such a nice time.
*chuckles* Ok everyone can lower a mages ac at a 25% chance of success but hey whatever.
So what you've shown me with this is that a mage can still reach mid-40 ac with a little planning a little more cash. Which is exactly what I"ve been trying to avoid. Also my mage still had the anti-kd cloak on, still had +6 from rings, still had +2 from helmet. So I was completely combat ready with full dc's while having near 40 ac...or over it if I had built in any way for ac.
So yes, I still say we have a problem which only gets worse the more cash you give a mage. Mages up at the super high end have mid-high 40's in ac which is way to high for a class which is supposed to have "nearly no" ac.
Oh and in that little calculation you've forgotten to include +1-5 boots making your ac totals 38-42 and mages have haste which could easily be extended and if they aren't facing another mage with mords could easily chance it and take a natural ac ammy and just extend cast haste for nearly 4 turns of speed while gaining up to another +5 ac making the total 42-47. Also ends up nearly saving them money.
Stat's are one of those things which can be easily manipulated by someone who knows how to use them and that's a pretty good post doing such, however you've left out some important details which are the entire reason why I'm weakening them.
Now to look at why what I'm saying works, lower that first casters ac by 2 (to 35) and you've got what I want mage ac to be. They can still use the +natural armor ac so it can still reach 40, it just costs them there haste ammy's now. So no, it doesn't seem so bad which is exactly what I've been trying to show you this entire time.
So what you've shown me with this is that a mage can still reach mid-40 ac with a little planning a little more cash. Which is exactly what I"ve been trying to avoid. Also my mage still had the anti-kd cloak on, still had +6 from rings, still had +2 from helmet. So I was completely combat ready with full dc's while having near 40 ac...or over it if I had built in any way for ac.
So yes, I still say we have a problem which only gets worse the more cash you give a mage. Mages up at the super high end have mid-high 40's in ac which is way to high for a class which is supposed to have "nearly no" ac.
Oh and in that little calculation you've forgotten to include +1-5 boots making your ac totals 38-42 and mages have haste which could easily be extended and if they aren't facing another mage with mords could easily chance it and take a natural ac ammy and just extend cast haste for nearly 4 turns of speed while gaining up to another +5 ac making the total 42-47. Also ends up nearly saving them money.
Stat's are one of those things which can be easily manipulated by someone who knows how to use them and that's a pretty good post doing such, however you've left out some important details which are the entire reason why I'm weakening them.
Now to look at why what I'm saying works, lower that first casters ac by 2 (to 35) and you've got what I want mage ac to be. They can still use the +natural armor ac so it can still reach 40, it just costs them there haste ammy's now. So no, it doesn't seem so bad which is exactly what I've been trying to show you this entire time.
Mid 40? Mid 40 with having 203947329247492 gold. Mine had 34*** (pure caster) while still being combat effective and all his 190k munnies spent. Unless he's like mine, and stayed on the server soaking xp for months till he gets 400k. He ain't going to be any AC buffet. PS: Mine has expertise, so his AC is 44 w/o expertise. It's 44 with expertise now. Taking away expertise would of been better than hard boots.
Dispel is 30% chance on someone with 20 tumble. If you are going to wear 24 INT.. you aren't going to be beating any class with those DCs. You won't have the spells, or the power to beat anything back wearing mage gear.
Taking extend spell for a mage is a bad build type..
Yes stats can be manipulated, sacraficing all your INT for DEX is a poor choice, but possible. You just will be a little prissy mage that has no power but can only be hit on first and last and sometimes mid rolls. Good build.
Mages having 40 AC is not a problem. Mages having 50 AC is a problem. Mages can only get 50 AC with loads of money, a poor build design (extend spell is terrible for mages), and/or sacrifice of INT for DEX.. in which case I would call that a victory for the melee.. having to deal with less spells and DCs.
Dispel is 30% chance on someone with 20 tumble. If you are going to wear 24 INT.. you aren't going to be beating any class with those DCs. You won't have the spells, or the power to beat anything back wearing mage gear.
Taking extend spell for a mage is a bad build type..
Yes stats can be manipulated, sacraficing all your INT for DEX is a poor choice, but possible. You just will be a little prissy mage that has no power but can only be hit on first and last and sometimes mid rolls. Good build.
Mages having 40 AC is not a problem. Mages having 50 AC is a problem. Mages can only get 50 AC with loads of money, a poor build design (extend spell is terrible for mages), and/or sacrifice of INT for DEX.. in which case I would call that a victory for the melee.. having to deal with less spells and DCs.
For such a lonely soul, you're having such a nice time.
All I"m saying is that my mage reached 40 with nearly the gear you had written up on your first example without using any tumble. Lower it by 5 (he was using +3 boots and +5 armor) and you've got 35 ac making for mages. I say that's not to shabby when you're fighting a class with 50% conceal, 30/+5 dr and more then a few ways to attack your ab.
Oh and also, my mage has max'd int so he's reached 40 ac without any sacrificing of int, also started with 10 dex I believe. I only had 22 dex buffed up. However now if your caster had 34 ac and was pure that means if he took 1 level of rogue he could have had 36 which I think is acceptable for mages.
So yes I agree with you Casas, your character is exactly where I think mages should be. I just don't think that gaining millions more dollars should allow them to have higher then that. So for the sake of balance all around I say 36 is an acceptable medium for mages. I'm glad we could come to this conclusion, took a while, but we could.
Oh and also, my mage has max'd int so he's reached 40 ac without any sacrificing of int, also started with 10 dex I believe. I only had 22 dex buffed up. However now if your caster had 34 ac and was pure that means if he took 1 level of rogue he could have had 36 which I think is acceptable for mages.
So yes I agree with you Casas, your character is exactly where I think mages should be. I just don't think that gaining millions more dollars should allow them to have higher then that. So for the sake of balance all around I say 36 is an acceptable medium for mages. I'm glad we could come to this conclusion, took a while, but we could.
The most powerful aspect of mages is their versatility. More than any other class on EW, they can adapt their gear and spells to suit the situation at hand. They are also able to handle multiple types of characters better than other classes. A melee who wishes defense against a mage must give up much of his AC, making him vulnerable to other meleers. A mage who wishes defense against that melee need not make such sacrifices, though he may need to sacrifice an offensive spell or two to get another stoneskin.
It is extremely easy for my mage (who does not have expertise btw) to adapt to various classes and equipment. If someone has DR against one element, it is simple to kill them with another. Resistance against all elements? That's expensive, and I can still use negative energy spells or magic damage spells.
Likewise, it is easy for mages to reach high AC values because of the sheer variety of spells at their command. Mage armor + shield + shadow shield is +11 AC alone (assuming no gear overlap). Add in some easily attained +3 robes/boots and your ac is soaring already.
And then there are status effects. A mage can cause pretty much any status effect he wants, and immunity can't cover everything. Sure, you can be immune to fear, mind spells, death spells, have freedom on, and be wearing elemental resistances, but a skilled mage could still blind you or petrify you. Or kill you in a dozen other ways. And the mage can have a spell of each type memorized at once, so that a single hole in the immunities leads to death. This is the power of mages when used properly.
The problem is that only a few skilled players are fully able to utilize mages properly. It is they who cause many of the complains about overpowered mages, and nerfing them will only cause the class to be unattractive to newbies.
The reason that mages are the most powerful anti-sneak class lies not in their sheer spotting ability, but the ability to disable and kill sneakers from afar. Bards and fighters are torn apart when archer sneakers run around corners, shoot, run and hide again, but the mage need not ever get close to kill the sneaker. Powerful defensive spells like improved invisibility only help prevent counterattacks from the sneaker. Mages kill sneakers because they do not need to catch the sneaker to kill them. This relates to a sneaker's main strength of being able to stay out of range of melee attacks. Something reducing the ability of sneakers to run away would be an ideal balance in my opinion.
Some have mentioned using throwing axes to kill sneak archers. This works to a degree, but not very well. Most melee classes have terrible AB with ranged weapons, and in my experience, a ranged weapon only encourages sneaks to cornersneak more aggressively in order to avoid being hit.
As for the topic of Expertise, I agree that casters should not have it. +5 ac with no penalty is simply cheese.
It is extremely easy for my mage (who does not have expertise btw) to adapt to various classes and equipment. If someone has DR against one element, it is simple to kill them with another. Resistance against all elements? That's expensive, and I can still use negative energy spells or magic damage spells.
Likewise, it is easy for mages to reach high AC values because of the sheer variety of spells at their command. Mage armor + shield + shadow shield is +11 AC alone (assuming no gear overlap). Add in some easily attained +3 robes/boots and your ac is soaring already.
And then there are status effects. A mage can cause pretty much any status effect he wants, and immunity can't cover everything. Sure, you can be immune to fear, mind spells, death spells, have freedom on, and be wearing elemental resistances, but a skilled mage could still blind you or petrify you. Or kill you in a dozen other ways. And the mage can have a spell of each type memorized at once, so that a single hole in the immunities leads to death. This is the power of mages when used properly.
The problem is that only a few skilled players are fully able to utilize mages properly. It is they who cause many of the complains about overpowered mages, and nerfing them will only cause the class to be unattractive to newbies.
The reason that mages are the most powerful anti-sneak class lies not in their sheer spotting ability, but the ability to disable and kill sneakers from afar. Bards and fighters are torn apart when archer sneakers run around corners, shoot, run and hide again, but the mage need not ever get close to kill the sneaker. Powerful defensive spells like improved invisibility only help prevent counterattacks from the sneaker. Mages kill sneakers because they do not need to catch the sneaker to kill them. This relates to a sneaker's main strength of being able to stay out of range of melee attacks. Something reducing the ability of sneakers to run away would be an ideal balance in my opinion.
Some have mentioned using throwing axes to kill sneak archers. This works to a degree, but not very well. Most melee classes have terrible AB with ranged weapons, and in my experience, a ranged weapon only encourages sneaks to cornersneak more aggressively in order to avoid being hit.
As for the topic of Expertise, I agree that casters should not have it. +5 ac with no penalty is simply cheese.
Gnarr, what was your budget? As well as, did you retain KD immunity? And premo matters not to a dagger. I was budgeted at 190k and a pure wizard.
I didn't read any of that drunken, except the conclusion.. of which I agree with 100%. Casters shouldn't have expertise.. however hard to implement.
I didn't read any of that drunken, except the conclusion.. of which I agree with 100%. Casters shouldn't have expertise.. however hard to implement.
For such a lonely soul, you're having such a nice time.
I"m sorry Casas, my nwn isn't open and I'm not playing it right now. Perhaps if you learned to use some manners I'd be more inclined to do such a thing for you but as of right now I have no interest in going online. As of right now I don't feel so inclined to help you out so you'll simply have to wait until I do.