Bards...again

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:10 am

Ok Rafeal I read your little post and your obvious contempt with it towards me.

You often state ways around what I've given as examples. I'll use the mage part for the reference. However simply because there are ways around what I've stated (as there ALWAYS are) doesn't mean what I've suggested aren't viable options. Simply because there are work arounds doesn't mean you'll run into them every time and also doesn't make what I've suggested not viable should they not preset themselves. There's a counter to EVERY move but simply stating them doesn't make the simple things I've suggested work any less.

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You know what, I wrote an entire 3-4 paragraph response to Rafael but I don't think there's a purpose to it. It's a stupid argument over minute details of a class which can crush nearly all melees. In the end bards have +5 ac over everyone else with NO ab penalty. That's huge. That's 25% less of a chance to hit for usual of 80 less hp. If you've ever made a CON based char you'll know that AC is WAY better then HP for staying alive.

Bards shouldn't be able to crush a melee when they focus 100% on AB. They should put up a good fight but not crush them. 1:1 style ratio. Mages should beat bards about 2:1 and sneakers probably 1:1. I don't see why this is such a crazy idea.

We claim a Rock:Paper:Sissors idea but when you pit Rock vs Rock it's meant to be a tie, not a Melee Bard Rock kills Melee Barbarian Rock 8:1 win to loss. (I'm obviously exagerating lets not jump on me for the numbers please)

Bards are GREAT after level 12. Bards are HORRIBLE before level 12. That's always the way it has been. With the removal of expertise they won't die out as a class, they'll simply have to work a little for there kills. I don't see why this is a huge problem.

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:02 am

With the removal of expertise they will die oput before lvl 12 unless they are dex and hiding then again dex bards aren't usefull at all since anyone can get enough dr to shrug off most if not any dmg of from them.They Don't have 5 ac over any other class, They don't have tower shields that go to+5 Buddy. Many classes can reach equal if not higher ac, but i don't want to start that again.You see i play bards for the most time, I never orginally planned on taking expertise, however all the nerfs push you into one direction: to seek ac, not to own everyone around but merely to survive.You see you can remove expertise from the bards but you also have to give them a chance of survival agains all those monsterous ab that is recently out there, I made a bard 2 days ago and fought a greatsword Barbarian, I was stomped into the ground...If you wan't to remove expertise from them I'd really give them tower shields back be it for pure bards or some other sort of restriction, or the old conceal back, to empower Pureness over multiclass, make thir sonr ORGINAL NWN so not some wierd zomg +4 ab but +2 ab.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:42 am

I'm against all the bard nerfs going on Raf, but none of my bards at EW ever had expertise and they all did just fine.

I still purpose maybe taking expertise away and giving their tower shields back. Trading 2 AC for 5 and gaining 45% more spell failure. Pure bards that is.

Musekaze · Post by **Musekaze** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:31 am

well see the thing is, you can just take a shield on and off at anytime to cast. armor you can take off, but you have to wait to be out of combat to re equip.

but taking away ex. and givign them +3 tower shields doesn't sound to shabby, coming from a guy who cant make a bard for his life.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:05 pm

Try taking the shield off to cast while in a fight...

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:14 am

An you have a Blood thirsty Barbarian spamming KD at you. For me if Bards had to trade expertise for towershields it would be fine(Pure Bards I mean). You see I never ever took expertise with a Bard, no prepic and certanly not preepic, I felt forced to with all this bard nerfs.

Post by **Rary** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:51 am

Barbs get 41 ab without help from another teammate. This is a +5 kukri and weapoin focus in it with +13 str mod.

A few things everyone is forgetting is a bard's song and curse song add's to them selves and subtracts from there victim. So that is a 8 AC swing and same with AB if your max'd.

A bard's aura is very powerful. I had a level 17 bard that was killing people by the aura alone. Have fun stopping near 40 sonic damage every round plus everything else in my arsenal.

Another thing people are forgetting. Bards are a jack of all trades, not the pawner of all trades. They are the only class that can set traps, cast spells, melee fight, and dodge spells effectively. If you put them in an even fight with barbs and fighters. You now have a class that is even with those 2 but can also set traps and cast spells. Alittle bit over the top don't you think.

Another main thing, a bard can make his/her team a powerhouse, a major benefit for teamplay. But right now alot of players want to just kill the bards and make them a paladin with arcane spells basically.

Musekaze · Post by **Musekaze** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:13 pm

i highly doubt someone could build a bard that could cast, fight, set traps, adn eat mages all at teh same time. if so, i wonna see that in action.

Rafael · Post by **Rafael** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:19 pm

Muse you can't :)But you can a melee tank trapper, Casas did it some i think, however mages still will eat yo (Well you can beat Flo or Golden Mage with a bard but that is nothing special

)

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:13 pm

Dib did. He did it all (he even beat kerrie before the conceal nerf), and if I remade him, I'm sure I could remake him to wear heavy armor to make him more formidable.

LittleLostThief · Post by **LittleLostThief** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:51 pm

Why is his head so big? Why is his head soooooooo big?!

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:12 pm

A barbarian can get 44 AB with 13 strength mod. That's enough to hit 63 AC without rolling 20's. And we're saying that 50 is a big deal. 2 of that is from mage armor.

20 BAB, 13 Mod, 5 Weapon, 5 Amulet, 1 focus

Pure Bard is.. 11 ( dex 12 )+11 full plate+4 small shield+4 boots * realistically. Easier to get max AB with a barb than max AC with any build. *+3 cloak+ 4 haste+ 4 tumble +5 song + 2 mage armor = 48 AC. Trading the banning for expertise for their tower shields back, keeping all current nerfs will let them have 50 respectively. 53 if they play their level 20 bard long enough.

I had 55 perform with my level 13 bard and never did over 20 damage with my sonic aura.

Protection from elements > me.

Sypnosis: Yes.. we all know bards are good at melee fights and sometimes hearing sneakers and we all know they aren't the best vs. mages. * Low Fort/ Horrid anyone? * Can't really spot traps either... petrify traps hurt. All they really have going for them is their effectiveness on defense and their pure bard song. Their AB isn't incredible if you want to focus on AC and spells.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:21 pm

Well 40 with the song versus 53 and conceal...and a damage shield which you can't be immune to with that ab setup.

Ya I'd say that's formidable. Also Casas said Dib could because he could. He couldn't do it all at once but he could do it all. I mean sweet mother of god I think before the nerf to the way traps worked Dib could reach like 40+ dc on traps. Believe me that death trap was t3h l4m3

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:23 pm

My sorc has 59 AC, Acid Sheath, 50% Conceal and Premonition.... what you got to say about that?

isiana · Post by **isiana** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:29 am

You have too much gold. And your hp must be on the loweer side from pumping dex.

Bards...again

Here's my input.