Holy Sword

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:29 pm

It's a d4 class. That's what should be compared, 2 CON is equivalent to 20 HP.. anyone can get CON. Toughness isn't a very good feat.. but since wizards get extra feats over sorcs - they can take it.

+5 on daggers is not the same as +5 on a scythe. There is a HUGE difference. If you don't think it is.. then why don't we just bring back the original enchantment system.. all weapons can have +5 and see what happens to mages.

Post by **Rary** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:55 pm

+5 daggers, 5+4 = 9 ; with Crit = 18
+5 scythe, 5+8 = 13; with Crit = 52

Damage bonuses, str bonuses, and all others I forgot get's the x4 vs daggers x2.

Holy sword goes on any weapon their wielded?
I'm a noob, I thought they were longsword only.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:06 pm

What? Uhh yes.

T3hRedMage · Post by **T3hRedMage** » Thu May 17, 2007 10:11 pm

I have to admit, when I had my half-orc paladin/ wizard with 52 AB, improved knockdown and a scythe... mages didn't really last long.

Smite crit for 200+ everytime. +5 scythe really is too much. If you're going to make one, make it unusable by fighters, barbarians and paladins. ( WM )

I say we treat holy sword like GMW, and add 1d6 slashing damage and on hit-dispell if you want to buff it up.

Strength paladins are kinda lacky since the holy sword nerf. Pretty much have to have divine might to do great damage with a paladin now.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Thu May 17, 2007 10:34 pm

Yea but you can combine STR paladin with divine might.. only need PA and 13 CHA.

Post by **Rary** » Fri May 18, 2007 7:26 am

Holy sword gives +2 now and onhit doom and onhit dispel. The +2 needs to be +3.

Lord Mephisto · Post by **Lord Mephisto** » Fri May 18, 2007 8:27 am

Casas wrote:I have played every class on this server. I've been here awhile. I've also played nwn since it was released.

Just because you have been around for a while, doesn't make you a voice of truth. That goes for myself as well.

Casas wrote: You thought HS was Holy Avenger and were very adamant about it being true. It's my conjecture you've never played a paladin and used our version of holy sword.

I was wrong about Holy Sword because I used to play on this server a while back when the spell was different. I haven't played a high level paladin myself on this server, but I have fought quite a few.

When I am wrong, I admit it. That's the only way to learn. But simply because the current way Holy Sword works on this server was different from what I thought, does not imply my suggestions and ideas about game balance are any worse or any better than yours after we both have the correct information. We have to look at the facts.

In another post, you say you would sooner be up against a dispelling sword than a +5 weapon. This seems strange to me. True, a dangerous melee character could pass through damage reduction with a +5 weapon, but what is worse? Getting hit or getting hit and losing spell enchantements. As a mage, I'd sooner fight a +10 weapon than a dispelling sword. For a mage, dispelling equals death.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Fri May 18, 2007 9:03 am

I have played every class on this server.

Make a paladin. Until then your suggestions are about as helpful as myself telling large oil companies what to do. You have zero experience with the class. You've never even used holy sword.

s a mage, I'd sooner fight a +10 weapon than a dispelling sword.

That just shows you don't know what you're doing. Fight a +10 weapon, they won't miss and your DR matters nothing. Fight HS they can miss and won't go through the DR - you'll have more time till they breach the lameness of Premo and Gskin stacking before a dispel fires off. I could get a few maximized 120 chains out and kill the paladin, as well as a Mordenkain 50% dispel chance to remove some of his damage buffs.

Lord Mephisto · Post by **Lord Mephisto** » Fri May 18, 2007 4:34 pm

Casas wrote:Make a paladin. Until then your suggestions are about as helpful as myself telling large oil companies what to do. You have zero experience with the class. You've never even used holy sword.

Who says I haven't played a paladin on other servers? Where do you get this information?

And again, you attempt to club people to silence by telling them they don't know what they are talking about without really backing it up with factual arguments.

Either debate, or keep silent. But don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about without backing it up with facts.

Casas wrote:
s a mage, I'd sooner fight a +10 weapon than a dispelling sword.
That just shows you don't know what you're doing.

That is your opinion. It is not fact.

There are a lot of things to consider, and I for one will give some facts. I will even use my extreme "point of argument" example in the statistics I will soon provide. It will not be, however, before tomorrow, because I am hosting a party tonight.

In the meantime, good gaming.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Fri May 18, 2007 5:01 pm

Where do you get this information?

You didn't even know what HS did. I'm not debating with someone who hasn't used the object in question. You lack experience.

And for the record, my STR paladin kills mages faster w/o HS with a +5 dagger then with HS and a +3 greatsword. -Let alone a +10 weapon.

And since the only person other than myself that has used holy sword is TRM.. and he says it is fine as well. I don't see any debate.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Sat May 19, 2007 10:14 am

While Meph you are quite good at debating, your diction and sentence structure shows it, it seems that you don't quite know how ineffective holysword is on this server.

- Now this forum isn't for arguments between you two. This exchange is getting close to being nothing more then a personal argument so keep it on topic and off personal attacks. I'm not saying you are now but don't flame each other otherwise all that's going to happen is a forum lock.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:16 am

No one else will step up to the plate and defend anything. You do nothing - that leaves it to me.

Xianio · Post by **Xianio** » Sat May 19, 2007 6:16 pm

You haven't been doing much defending in the past few strips with the greater chunk being things you've already said. Simply because we don't repeat ourselves or feel the need to repeat others doesn't mean if something seems to be going in a direction opposite to ours we won't speak up. You're just the loudest, not the only one.

Casas · Post by **Casas** » Sun May 20, 2007 9:28 am

If the point hasn't been defeated, I will repeat it. I'm not letting someone bypass it and forget. He had never given any supporting evidence to show how it is overpowered. None. I had shown personal experience of how it is not.

His solution was to make it +5 and/or yield more damage and give mind immunity (something they already have) or make it Gdispel.

I showed the +5 would be too powerful. The more damage is outrageous considering paladins can hit 40 damage with their fist (this doesn't need to be shown.. everyone has seen it).

They already have mind immunity spell.. why would they need another?

Gdispel.. would be a one time use, but a guaranteed hit. HS would be multiple uses and dispel once through the DR spells. Would have to test to see which would be more beneficial. At the least Gdispel would have 25% to rid the mage of his DR upfront, while HS would have to fight through it.

He supported or showed no evidence to show why his suggestions would be better then what it is now, or why HS is overpowered. Just restated that it is, because he believes it is.

but what is worse? Getting hit or getting hit and losing spell enchantments.

That's a binary fallacy. He compared only two incorrect things. HS is not guarantee hit, or dispel - Anyone using it knows that to be true.

Or that he used a fabricated weapon to support HS is too strong. But the 2d6 inferno Greatsword needs to be restricted from paladins. That is a good point, they don't need any access to 19-20 threat range weapons with more then 1d6 elemental. Perhaps not so much after GMW is redone.

I have shown it isn't what he claims it to be.. a constant - hit by hit dispeller of mages that never fails. That alone pulls the only plank out under his argument.

I will even use my extreme "point of argument" example in the statistics I will soon provide.

That is the only point he has that entices my interest - as everything else is quite moot.

Lord Mephisto · Post by **Lord Mephisto** » Sun May 20, 2007 9:31 am

Xianio wrote:While Meph you are quite good at debating, your diction and sentence structure shows it, it seems that you don't quite know how ineffective holysword is on this server.

- Now this forum isn't for arguments between you two. This exchange is getting close to being nothing more then a personal argument so keep it on topic and off personal attacks. I'm not saying you are now but don't flame each other otherwise all that's going to happen is a forum lock.

Point taken. I will refrain from this rather personal hot debate to ensure it will never go over the top, my intention was not to get to this point.

I will be more constructive in other topics. My "Part 2 - Suggestions" is on it's way.

And Casas, you are more than welcome to discuss things with me. Your long experience on this server is a great asset. But you must understand it is annoying when someone says you don't know what you are talking about all the time without any particulary good reason. Please join me in civil debates with factual arguments in the future, and I am sure we can have a constructive debate for the good of this server. Peace, allright?