Reducing Mage Power
-
AntiChristMofo
- Fiendish Subjugator of Demons
- Posts: 1045
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:46 pm
- Location: UK, England, Birmingham
i think the piont hes trying to make that not all meeles have the money to buff up there will to save for PK without any other buildings raping the and since will is very low for meeles it makes it harder specialy if your a rouge and you are just about to get round a cornor and the mage you attacked just uses PK because my rouge have very low will and even when i use 2 + 5 rings and 1 +5 fort cloak wizards can still PK me so its not like i havnt tried
Chars: The Mad Axe King / The Dwarven Front Line (DFL) / The Dark King
My WM has cranked out 600+ dmg in a single round.. same with my RDD. Bigby was nerfed, it has a set 31 fort save now.. so if you fail it, you would fail FoD, thus you should never fail the bigby nerf.. unless you take immunity route.
NEB is also blocked by soul of rak.. soul of rak really makes most wizards useless, combined with evasion and a high reflex. So.. I dunno, beating mages ain't hard, most people just don't know how.
Mages are powerful, and steps are being taken to reduce their power. Little steps. Like I said, bigby has already been done, stoneskin and premo are on the agenda atm. Hopefully I can convince Rary to reduce their absorptions by 5 each.
My mage never loses, because I know how to play him very well, just like my cleric.
NEB is also blocked by soul of rak.. soul of rak really makes most wizards useless, combined with evasion and a high reflex. So.. I dunno, beating mages ain't hard, most people just don't know how.
Mages are powerful, and steps are being taken to reduce their power. Little steps. Like I said, bigby has already been done, stoneskin and premo are on the agenda atm. Hopefully I can convince Rary to reduce their absorptions by 5 each.
My mage never loses, because I know how to play him very well, just like my cleric.
For such a lonely soul, you're having such a nice time.
Also helps that your mage has 45 ac making him nearly unhittable once you get nailed by an imposing hand and a dispel.
I haven't suggested we lower any DC's. Infact I said that I don't really want spells changed. Just a few removed.
Mages don't need to spot. There are a dozen spells which are aoe's that hurt rogues. And who cares if mages get ruled by sneaks. At least they'd be ruled by someone, just like every other class. Soul of the Rak can only be used once a mage has horrid an unblockable spell and a known sneak killer. There are many others and if a rogue spends a ton of cash to be immune to your aoe's he either won't have haste or will have -5 to his saves so even a PK will take him out. It's a fair trade for a sneak I'd say. Removing the detect items from a mage means that a multi-class mage can reach 23+6 (rings) + 5 (weapon) +4 empowered wisdom + 12 helmet (I might be wrong on this amount) = 50. 50 is a very respectable listen score. It isn't great but it's still good. I don't see anything unfair with that score on a class which right now destroys sneaks without a second thought.
Balancing spells means that you need to balance them against -every- class. Balancing items allows you to balance mages against individual class types rather than EVERYONE. It's a much easier and smaller job to balance items rather then balance spells.
So, for all these reasons I say we should stop mages from being hardcore anti-sneaks (still can spot non-dedicated ones or strength based ones) and stops them from being nearly immune to melees.
Oh and Casas your WM and RDD both use scythes and require you to roll 15 or 17-20 to land crits while a mage can have a 30-32 dc on a chainlightning making them have a lot easier time doing that 400 damage then you have doing 600.
I haven't suggested we lower any DC's. Infact I said that I don't really want spells changed. Just a few removed.
Mages don't need to spot. There are a dozen spells which are aoe's that hurt rogues. And who cares if mages get ruled by sneaks. At least they'd be ruled by someone, just like every other class. Soul of the Rak can only be used once a mage has horrid an unblockable spell and a known sneak killer. There are many others and if a rogue spends a ton of cash to be immune to your aoe's he either won't have haste or will have -5 to his saves so even a PK will take him out. It's a fair trade for a sneak I'd say. Removing the detect items from a mage means that a multi-class mage can reach 23+6 (rings) + 5 (weapon) +4 empowered wisdom + 12 helmet (I might be wrong on this amount) = 50. 50 is a very respectable listen score. It isn't great but it's still good. I don't see anything unfair with that score on a class which right now destroys sneaks without a second thought.
Balancing spells means that you need to balance them against -every- class. Balancing items allows you to balance mages against individual class types rather than EVERYONE. It's a much easier and smaller job to balance items rather then balance spells.
So, for all these reasons I say we should stop mages from being hardcore anti-sneaks (still can spot non-dedicated ones or strength based ones) and stops them from being nearly immune to melees.
Oh and Casas your WM and RDD both use scythes and require you to roll 15 or 17-20 to land crits while a mage can have a 30-32 dc on a chainlightning making them have a lot easier time doing that 400 damage then you have doing 600.
Nailed? Interpose has a set save of 31 DC, if someone fails it, I would just fod them (assuming I had it).
Gnarr, go make a mage.. a decent one. Most of your suggestions seem to bias. Mages can't just start throwing down ice storms (of which has immunity) to dmg rogues, and horrid is TK's number one friend. Rogues don't use haste amulet anyway. Pk has fear rod.. and you have to see them to use PK, so once you take away their ability to spot/listen (of which I think is a bit foolish.. since most classes can't touch cs). 50 listen won't get sneaks.. rogue sneaks can get 70 ms.
So, you want to take away the best counter to cs?
Pft, no mage can make the damage you outlined, the MOST (assuming no quicken spell, because we've already equiped the target with soul of rak) damage a mage can do per round is 240, and that's two maximized chains that were failed **on someone who was too stupid to wear anti-mage gear. My WM cranks out more than that, nearly every round. My RDD more than that, with his scimitar.
Like Rary said, most people that lose to mages, go in wearing non-mage gear. Mages do need nerfs, but not the ones you've outlined. Instead of balancing their spells, you want to omit them.. I don't agree with that.
Gnarr, go make a mage.. a decent one. Most of your suggestions seem to bias. Mages can't just start throwing down ice storms (of which has immunity) to dmg rogues, and horrid is TK's number one friend. Rogues don't use haste amulet anyway. Pk has fear rod.. and you have to see them to use PK, so once you take away their ability to spot/listen (of which I think is a bit foolish.. since most classes can't touch cs). 50 listen won't get sneaks.. rogue sneaks can get 70 ms.
So, you want to take away the best counter to cs?
Pft, no mage can make the damage you outlined, the MOST (assuming no quicken spell, because we've already equiped the target with soul of rak) damage a mage can do per round is 240, and that's two maximized chains that were failed **on someone who was too stupid to wear anti-mage gear. My WM cranks out more than that, nearly every round. My RDD more than that, with his scimitar.
Like Rary said, most people that lose to mages, go in wearing non-mage gear. Mages do need nerfs, but not the ones you've outlined. Instead of balancing their spells, you want to omit them.. I don't agree with that.
For such a lonely soul, you're having such a nice time.
-
AntiChristMofo
- Fiendish Subjugator of Demons
- Posts: 1045
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:46 pm
- Location: UK, England, Birmingham
ok let me remind you that most people dont have enough money to buy two sets of arour and items to keep in the hotkeys for mages because we are to busy trying to keep up with everyone has fair enough if you have built an anti mage char but its not like we are going into the arena and choosing who to fight are we??? and i must admitt most of the i go agianst mages without any anti mage gear at all just because there 2 mages and about 7 different types of meele classes and the ratio is that you will most like be fighting a meele then a mage.......
Chars: The Mad Axe King / The Dwarven Front Line (DFL) / The Dark King
-
Rary
- Eternal War's Undertaker (DM,Admin)
- Posts: 1735
- Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:01 pm
- Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
- Contact:
As far as money goes. I had a level 7 with 22,000 gold and had immunity to PK and some other mage gear. I had no problem killing the mage (3:1 kill ratio, same lvl) and hanging fine with the cleric. So PK can be stopped with little money.
2nd, I have watched an entire team, 4 people go against 3 mages and a sneak. Every one of them had AC gear on and only 2 of them had anything to benefit against a mage or sneak. Of those 2, 1 had just a pierce DR belt. When we talk about balance we have to talk about possiblities because quite frankley, I think alot of mages do good because 70% of the players, are robots, or don't care. They feel that they need AC gear against mages.
If you go against a mage, sneak, and melee. Then yes, I expect you to get owned, if you don't, you're overpowered. This is where you're team "should" back you up.
This is arena, I don't want certain classes to be good against all classes. I don't want max AC's higher than max AB's+20. I want checks and balances done, no supreme class and no garbage class. I want variety, thats why I'm trying to get SD's in. More classes the better.
Balance is hard to do, but like Xianio said once you start to make changes to spells or anything else, it can throw a knot in the balance. Nerf'ing one spell can look good against 1 class that is struggling, but you opened up a hole for all the other classes.
But anyways, I definitely agree with AC on mages. Mages shouldn't be getting that high of AC.
2nd, I'm thinking of taking out expertise to balance out the AB/AC issue as well. This could fix the mages too high of AC issue as well.
2nd, I have watched an entire team, 4 people go against 3 mages and a sneak. Every one of them had AC gear on and only 2 of them had anything to benefit against a mage or sneak. Of those 2, 1 had just a pierce DR belt. When we talk about balance we have to talk about possiblities because quite frankley, I think alot of mages do good because 70% of the players, are robots, or don't care. They feel that they need AC gear against mages.
If you go against a mage, sneak, and melee. Then yes, I expect you to get owned, if you don't, you're overpowered. This is where you're team "should" back you up.
This is arena, I don't want certain classes to be good against all classes. I don't want max AC's higher than max AB's+20. I want checks and balances done, no supreme class and no garbage class. I want variety, thats why I'm trying to get SD's in. More classes the better.
Balance is hard to do, but like Xianio said once you start to make changes to spells or anything else, it can throw a knot in the balance. Nerf'ing one spell can look good against 1 class that is struggling, but you opened up a hole for all the other classes.
But anyways, I definitely agree with AC on mages. Mages shouldn't be getting that high of AC.
2nd, I'm thinking of taking out expertise to balance out the AB/AC issue as well. This could fix the mages too high of AC issue as well.
I'm not sure if you've turned it off but on most servers expertise cannot be used while casting.
Now Casas I can understand the argument that I seem baised...I am, I dislike casting classes and don't often play them. However your argument against my ideas dosen't seem to lend weight to what you're trying to say. You tell me to make a mage, a decent as we all know my sucks. Yet with mine I was able to level to 20 faster then 90% of my other characters. I was able to beat most people hands down while +5 axes were in the game AND while evoc. immunity armor was in the game. Oh and my mage doesn't even have Acid Shealth and I never used the bigby spells as they weren't balanced when I was playing my mage.
So I nerfed myself with my spell chioces and I was still able to take most people most of the time. So I would say I know from first hand experience that a -bad- build on a mage doesn't really make a difference. Infact the only difference from a good mage build to a bad mage build is against other mages.
Now onto the spot part. I'm aware that 50 listen/spot won't spot nearly anything. I already said that so there's no need to echo me. However my computers broken right now so I cannot check if the rak ammy is still in the game. If it's not however then I see no reason for that to be an issue. Mages are meant to be the best anti-melee in nwn and they are. However with the current setup for mages they're also the best anti-sneak and the best anti-mage. So really they're the best at killing everything overall. I mean sure you might be able to make a few that are better at 1 then the other but I highly doubt you can make a character that's better at killing all three then a normal wizard/sorc.
I won't argue AC anymore as that seems to be getting pretty much around the table concensus so I'll keep my focus on why a mage shouldn't be anti-sneak.
The sneak on average gains d6 hp. (referrnig to rogues and assassins here) They also gain some of the best anti-mage weaponry (the shadow weapons). Rogues can gain 11d6 sneaks if they're nearly pure with 1 assassin level. So they have the highest none-crit damage in the game. This damage makes them to be ideal mage killers as they can kill a mage in relatively few hits. If they can get continuous sneak attacks off they can even kill the mage before his damage shield kills them. However right now with our current setup most mages can spot most rogues before they can get close enough to sneak attack. This means that a rogue (what is meant to be the best thing at killing mages) cannot even get close enough to do meager damage.
With the gear we have now the mage has completely dismantled an entire class group. Rogues have high dex, low str, and generally crummy will and fort saves and hp. This means that a sneak goes down to FoD's, Horrids, IceStorms, Fear saves and Flesh to Stone saves. The only hope a rogue has to kill a mage is to hit him hard 1-2 times then get out of the way. However when a mage can see a rogue coming it removes all chance of "getting out of the way" before dying.
Now Casas you and I both want mages weakened we just differ on how we want it done. I've played on 4-5 different arena servers and about 3-5 different RP servers. All of which have had some element of pvp involved with them and most try and balance casters by weakening spells. I'd like to think that I've been around long enough to know that balancing spells requires a reworking of the entire system. Generally this takes years. Hell this server has been at it for at least 2 now trying to balance things here and there. To me it makes sense to use easier steps to balance mages then reworking things that effect EVERY class in the game. I believe it is easier, faster and smarter to choose a class type to make mages weak against and adjust gear appropriately. I've choosen sneaks as mages are meant to kill melees with ease and other casters put up a decent fight but overall sneaks seem to have the best potential for it.
So in the end I want mages to be weak to sneaks, not "ok" against sneaks, weak to them. They won't be "owned" by every sneak but a sneak should have a better chance at killing a mage then a mage has at killing a sneak. That's the balance I would like introduced.
Now Casas I can understand the argument that I seem baised...I am, I dislike casting classes and don't often play them. However your argument against my ideas dosen't seem to lend weight to what you're trying to say. You tell me to make a mage, a decent as we all know my sucks. Yet with mine I was able to level to 20 faster then 90% of my other characters. I was able to beat most people hands down while +5 axes were in the game AND while evoc. immunity armor was in the game. Oh and my mage doesn't even have Acid Shealth and I never used the bigby spells as they weren't balanced when I was playing my mage.
So I nerfed myself with my spell chioces and I was still able to take most people most of the time. So I would say I know from first hand experience that a -bad- build on a mage doesn't really make a difference. Infact the only difference from a good mage build to a bad mage build is against other mages.
Now onto the spot part. I'm aware that 50 listen/spot won't spot nearly anything. I already said that so there's no need to echo me. However my computers broken right now so I cannot check if the rak ammy is still in the game. If it's not however then I see no reason for that to be an issue. Mages are meant to be the best anti-melee in nwn and they are. However with the current setup for mages they're also the best anti-sneak and the best anti-mage. So really they're the best at killing everything overall. I mean sure you might be able to make a few that are better at 1 then the other but I highly doubt you can make a character that's better at killing all three then a normal wizard/sorc.
I won't argue AC anymore as that seems to be getting pretty much around the table concensus so I'll keep my focus on why a mage shouldn't be anti-sneak.
The sneak on average gains d6 hp. (referrnig to rogues and assassins here) They also gain some of the best anti-mage weaponry (the shadow weapons). Rogues can gain 11d6 sneaks if they're nearly pure with 1 assassin level. So they have the highest none-crit damage in the game. This damage makes them to be ideal mage killers as they can kill a mage in relatively few hits. If they can get continuous sneak attacks off they can even kill the mage before his damage shield kills them. However right now with our current setup most mages can spot most rogues before they can get close enough to sneak attack. This means that a rogue (what is meant to be the best thing at killing mages) cannot even get close enough to do meager damage.
With the gear we have now the mage has completely dismantled an entire class group. Rogues have high dex, low str, and generally crummy will and fort saves and hp. This means that a sneak goes down to FoD's, Horrids, IceStorms, Fear saves and Flesh to Stone saves. The only hope a rogue has to kill a mage is to hit him hard 1-2 times then get out of the way. However when a mage can see a rogue coming it removes all chance of "getting out of the way" before dying.
Now Casas you and I both want mages weakened we just differ on how we want it done. I've played on 4-5 different arena servers and about 3-5 different RP servers. All of which have had some element of pvp involved with them and most try and balance casters by weakening spells. I'd like to think that I've been around long enough to know that balancing spells requires a reworking of the entire system. Generally this takes years. Hell this server has been at it for at least 2 now trying to balance things here and there. To me it makes sense to use easier steps to balance mages then reworking things that effect EVERY class in the game. I believe it is easier, faster and smarter to choose a class type to make mages weak against and adjust gear appropriately. I've choosen sneaks as mages are meant to kill melees with ease and other casters put up a decent fight but overall sneaks seem to have the best potential for it.
So in the end I want mages to be weak to sneaks, not "ok" against sneaks, weak to them. They won't be "owned" by every sneak but a sneak should have a better chance at killing a mage then a mage has at killing a sneak. That's the balance I would like introduced.
Just because you can level a mage fast, doesn't mean they can beat all classes. They are a very versatile class, however any melee can beat a mage. Most idiots on this server don't know how to fight a mage.
Once all the spells have been balanced, I can beat any mage with any of my characters.
And the AC on mages, I think is fine.. they just need to lose their +5 armor, not the +5 hards. They only get +4 AC from shadow (dispellable), +1 from mage armor (dispellable), and +4 from shield (dispellable and there's a better cloak for OTHER classes). Their AC averages 40~45 (and that's some expensive AC), and if they are FULLY buffed. Where as, average AB is about 37, I don't see a problem there.
Especially since their offensive capabilities are almost all elemental, and have immunity. My wall can become completely, immune to mages. And he's melee. Only thing he's vulnerable to is IGMS, and horrid. He blocks everything else. I did recommend a long time ago to make horrid a 20d6 spell, instead of 20d8.. but Rary decided to make it target the caster.. I guess he didn't know that all casters are immune to horrid through shadow shield. Either way, a mage won't get me on 5x 10d8 horrids w/o tking someone.
Mages are weak to paladins, clerics, druids, WM, walls (dr barbs/dd included), RDDs, STR monks (sorta.. trying to get premo and stoneskin reduced a bit). Now that's not to say a mage can't beat them, but two players that both know what they are doing, mage will lose. So much anti mage gear exists.
Mages are MEANT to be the BEST counter to a cs. That's their job, and they are the best at it. CS are extremely powerful, thus a powerful counter, one that can squash it np.
Alright, CS then will be the most powerful class, because mage, their best counter was removed. Now only way to efficiently kill a cs is to bring another cs. Or equip someone with Critical Immunity amulet.. which is corny.
I think their AC was fine (Except for +5 armor.. which was 100k+). They still have quite a few spells that need balancing.
Once all the spells have been balanced, I can beat any mage with any of my characters.
And the AC on mages, I think is fine.. they just need to lose their +5 armor, not the +5 hards. They only get +4 AC from shadow (dispellable), +1 from mage armor (dispellable), and +4 from shield (dispellable and there's a better cloak for OTHER classes). Their AC averages 40~45 (and that's some expensive AC), and if they are FULLY buffed. Where as, average AB is about 37, I don't see a problem there.
Especially since their offensive capabilities are almost all elemental, and have immunity. My wall can become completely, immune to mages. And he's melee. Only thing he's vulnerable to is IGMS, and horrid. He blocks everything else. I did recommend a long time ago to make horrid a 20d6 spell, instead of 20d8.. but Rary decided to make it target the caster.. I guess he didn't know that all casters are immune to horrid through shadow shield. Either way, a mage won't get me on 5x 10d8 horrids w/o tking someone.
Mages are weak to paladins, clerics, druids, WM, walls (dr barbs/dd included), RDDs, STR monks (sorta.. trying to get premo and stoneskin reduced a bit). Now that's not to say a mage can't beat them, but two players that both know what they are doing, mage will lose. So much anti mage gear exists.
Mages are MEANT to be the BEST counter to a cs. That's their job, and they are the best at it. CS are extremely powerful, thus a powerful counter, one that can squash it np.
Alright, CS then will be the most powerful class, because mage, their best counter was removed. Now only way to efficiently kill a cs is to bring another cs. Or equip someone with Critical Immunity amulet.. which is corny.
I think their AC was fine (Except for +5 armor.. which was 100k+). They still have quite a few spells that need balancing.
Last edited by Casas on Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For such a lonely soul, you're having such a nice time.
-
Protoss119
Most classes can only get 50 listen. Most of the time, that's not enough. Against ranged-cs it's never enough.
Rary: If you remove expertise.. WM will disappear. Exp is OK after L13 or so.. until then, it's just annoying. Great way to fight low AC/high HP classes.
Rary: If you remove expertise.. WM will disappear. Exp is OK after L13 or so.. until then, it's just annoying. Great way to fight low AC/high HP classes.
For such a lonely soul, you're having such a nice time.
-
Rary
- Eternal War's Undertaker (DM,Admin)
- Posts: 1735
- Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:01 pm
- Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
- Contact:
The reason I hate expertise right now is because I'm tired of hacking for an hour at someone with a 40 AB and I can't hit them. Since there AB is low, they can't hit me. Anyways WM could get another feat instead of expertise if I needed too. Just my opinion, but a boring battle is one where no one hits.
Back to hide/sneak. Any melee rogue should find/hunt/kill any archer. Any melee rogue should not be allowed to have immunity to knockdown and a warrior can knockdown them. Mages can disable a rogue without them seeing them with spells.
Back to hide/sneak. Any melee rogue should find/hunt/kill any archer. Any melee rogue should not be allowed to have immunity to knockdown and a warrior can knockdown them. Mages can disable a rogue without them seeing them with spells.
Last edited by Rary on Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
AntiChristMofo
- Fiendish Subjugator of Demons
- Posts: 1045
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:46 pm
- Location: UK, England, Birmingham
