Changes (Positive & Negative)

[Casas]

Well, what about half-elf? Half-elves are innately weaker than gnomes.. there are more gnomes than half-elves.

I think gnomes are great for little STR people. My halfling bard would be better as a gnome, since he's STR based. They are pretty useful, albeit the illusion focus is crap.

[Rary]

At the time, someone had been using half-elf a good bit, because gnome was worsed used for 3 weeks.

[Casas]

But gnomes are better than half-elf.. as they receive some racial bonus. Half-elves get -

Sleeplessness: Immune to spells and effects of the 'Sleep' subtype.
- Hardiness vs. Enchantments: +2 racial bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting spells.
- Partial Skill Affinity (Listen): +1 racial bonus to Listen checks.
- Partial Skill Affinity (Search): +1 racial bonus to Search checks.
- Partial Skill Affinity (Spot): +1 racial bonus to Spot checks.
- Low-Light Vision: Allows them to see better than normal in the dark.

Yay, so they can sorta see in the dark, get +1 to detect and +2 to mind saves, and are immune to sleep. I'd take gnome any day.

[Casas]

I could only find +21 hide from gear, that's neutral and not involving weapons.

Greenleaf + 5
Rings 2x+3 = 6
Cloak of Elven +5
Hider Boots +3
Elven boots +5 MS

That's 19 hide and 5 MS or 13 hide and 11 MS.. did I leave something out?

Max detect neutral again, but weapons included.

+10 Axe (x2 possible)
+6 Rings
+10 Amulet
+10 Helm

K that's 19 vs 46 Not including Trueseeing for another +10. Then throw ontop the d20 roll..

Note: the only weapons that give hide/ms are rogue weapons, and the Assassin Blade which only yields +5 hide for 50k.

Note 2: There is nothing, absolutely nothing, preventing a L7 from spotting a L20 stealth class.

New ranger armor is.. studded leather? They are a DEX class.

At this rate, *anyone* who picks up detect gear can spot a stealth class so easily and effortlessly, it's ridiculous.

Please, bring back the OLD stealth/detect system. It was fine, just needed to be tweaked, not murdered and resurrected.

[Rary]

d20 is on hide just as well as listen, so you can't count the d20.

Yes, this input is needed, if you see an inbalance in the system let me know. The axes you mentioned got skipped on removal or lowering them.

[Casas]

Even w/o the axes, a L7 can detect a L20.

Any class can now detect any sneak, of any level both ways.

[Casas]

Even w/o the axes, a L7 can detect a L20.

Any class can now detect any sneak, of any level both ways.


New balance as of whatever the date is.

Detect: Spot
Axes now +5
Helms now +5
Amulet +10
+6 Rings
+10 Trueseeing

Stealth: Hide
+5 Greenleaf
Rings 2x+3 = 6
+5 Cloak of elven
Hider Boots +3

+36 Detect Vs 19 Hide still.. and with that 19 hide, do note you would have a +0 MS

Still imbalance.


The old system wasn't bad, we had
+6 rings
+10 boots = +16 MS + class armors + 10 weapons

+6 Rings
+10 Cloak
+10 Armor = +26 + class armors + 10 weapons

The detection was
+10 Amulet
+10 Helm
+6 Rings
+10 True Seeing = +36 Spot/+26 listen + 10 weapons and class armors (there weren't any class armors really).

The weapons pretty much cancel each other out, so stealth armors, feats, race, ability vs detects d20, feats, race, ability.

Only thing left is ranger/druid spells +24hide/+4ms, but only those classes got those, with 11+ WIS and sufficient levels.

I think the old system just needed tweakin'. It doesn't allow paladins to see sneaks (of which by rock-paper-scissor balance they shouldn't), and it doesn't let L7 see a L20 (progression is good).

The -listen on the haste belt is great. Sticks it to the ranged-cses more, as most all of them rely on listen to hear their approaching targets. If they wanna strip it, they can move less quickly.


Still need more weapons with +stealth/detect on them.. weapons in other fields too, every finessable weapon should have something like owl daggers (the old owl daggers really :-/)

[Rary]

Ok, added some amulets for hiding/move silently.

I also need to add some helmets that do the same.

[Casas]

K so.. anyone that has detect, can't hide.. and anyone that can hide.. can't detect?

Let's try it.

[Rary]

So you want someone that can hide and detect? Isn't that a dream of any CS'er?

[Casas]

Well, detectors will be seen by anyone (paladins included). Melee stealth will have a problem finding their hidden ranged targets.. as they will have to go detect.. ranged will stay stealth.. they should technically cancel each other out, giving ranged the upper hand.


New numbers:

Detect
+5 Heavy Armor Spot
+10 Amulet Spot/Listen
+7 Helm Spot/Listen (Alertness)
+20 Weapons +10 Spot|Listen x2 << Weapons can only be taken advantage of by medium+ races for dual wielding.
+10 Trueseeing Spot
= 52 Spot | 37 Listen

Wearing above equip would give.. +10 Hide 5 Ms. Making detectors at a SORE disadvantage to anyone in stealth. People in stealth will have no problem detecting that, while they are still concealed from most classes. Where as detectors have to brunt visibility to EVERYONE, including non-stealths will see them near instantly.

Stealth
+5 Greenleaf Hide| +5 Wolf Ms
+3 Hide Shoes Or +5 Ms boots
+5 Hide Cloak
+10 Hide/Ms Amulet << Insane, promotes nothing but amulet swapping, if you want to add more hide/ms gear put it on the melee weapons for stealth classes.
+5 Hide/Ms Helm
= +38 Hide | + 25 Ms Putting them both at maximum.. is +20/25


Now rogue's get shields AND stealth daggers.. no other stealth class gets this incredible power, including their anti-class: ranger.

Rogue shields for 10k give +6 to all stealth/detect.
Rogue weapons all give +5 ms

So +11 Ms and +6 hide +6Spot/Listen for all melee rogues.

Rangers get.. Owl daggers (and so does everyone else) for +5 detect and that's it.. oh and their STUDDED leather armor which has armor check penalties. So they are now the a terrible stealth class if not multied.

You really wanna kill all melee stealth classes but rogue don't you?
This new system is bad. Bring the old system back.. and just tweak it. Also old rings are being grandfathered.. you NEED to remember to purge damned equip after you modify it.

Stealth classes can't detect each other.. this system ~encourages~ leaching among sneaks. Who the hell will want to get detect gear and have such a terrible hide/ms that paladins could see them w/o wearing gear, just to be able to possibly see the other stealther.. who still is protected from most unseeing eyes.. and can detect them as well.. since their detect stinks and so does the spotters stealth ability.

This system stinks. Doesn't anyone agree, good god.. It's like you all enjoy this.

My recommendations:
REMOVE stealth amultes. << This only encourages amulet swapping, and prevents stealthers from detecting one another, without signing a deathwish to obtain detection gear.
REMOVE stealth helmet. << Wtf? We need these? Once again kills detectors.

REDUCE axes of +10 detection to +5 and restrict them to natural spot/listen classes.
REDUCE rogue shield power: do not give them +detection, only stealth ability.. they need ONLY to hide from ranged long enough to reach them.

ADD penalties to bow weapons -listen/ms.. if they want to strip their weapon while they sneak, fine they won't be able to auto-fire back when they get hit.

RESTORE elven cloak.
RESTORE elven shoes.
RESTORE and ADD owls dagers to other weapon classes. (+5 Detect/Stealth)
RESTORE spells to their original power, except clauv.


Both stealth and detect should rise with level.. not have to be forfeited to obtain the other.. this will ONLY kill detectors off, while everyone would rather be blind and invisible than visible to all.

Do not give stealth classes the ability to choose Stealth or Detect, they will ALWAYS choose stealth. Detect you have outlined is innately weaker. Unless you want to smack on stealth abilities for the detectors.. but what's to stop the pure stealths from grabbing the gear as well?

The only good change, I like is adding -listen to belt of haste.

[Casas]

Bump

[Rary]

Ok. Well someone needs to figure out whats bad. I'm getting people saying hide/ms is insanely high and you and some others saying listen/spot is insanely high. So obvisously no one can agree what is really bad.

So with that in mind I have to figure out what is really the truth. I will assume yours is more accurate since no one else has proved why they can get 80 hide.

Also old rings are being grandfathered.. you NEED to remember to purge damned equip after you modify it.

Its on a acquired script so it either works or it doesn't. Being grandfathered has nothing to do with it because it runs when you log in since you just acquired it.

The only good change, I like is adding -listen to belt of haste.

The haste belt has always had - listen. It had -10 listen and -10 move last time.

[Casas]

The haste belt did not 'always' have -listen. It used to only be -10 MS, that was all. I am positive on that fact.

I meant the old rings, that didn't require skill focus.

I outlined some points, I find very useful to bring back a better sense of balance, in that last post of mine. (Not the bump).


What is really bad is, giving sneaks a choice between Detection or Stealth. Never, ever, do that. They will always choose stealth.

Stealth classes can't detect each other.. this system ~encourages~ leaching among sneaks. Who the hell will want to get detect gear and have such a terrible hide/ms that paladins could see them w/o wearing gear, just to be able to possibly see the other stealther.. who still is protected from most unseeing eyes.. and can detect them as well.. since their detect stinks and so does the spotters stealth ability.

Under this new system sneak damaging classes rule, their anti-class, ranger can be detected by paladins while the ranger tries to detect the sneaks, and the sneaks he's sniffing out, see him first.

Take into consideration the suggestions I made in my last post, please.